Hello Shywolf,

I am currently in a divorce with my wife as I believe she is an N.  Her brother was diagnosed as a classic narcissist about a year ago and much of the behavior that I experienced is coming to a head.  My experience is that they must win at all costs.  And because of this attitude they will not do what you would like them to do.  It is always about them.  Games is part of the process.  In the beginning I used to let it bother me, however, over time I began to get stronger.  NEVER, EVER LET THE N THINK YOU ARE WEAK IN ANY WAY.  They view a weakness as an opportunity to take advantage of you.  don't get involved in "their stuff" and do what you can to ignore their behavior.  Do you still love him?  Do you still care for him?  If you do, he will know and will use that to take advantage of you.  Your divorce should be like a business.  It is unfortunate that we can't divorce from the N on friendly terms but what they bring to the table makes that hard to do.  Find a support group and do what you can to stay out of his chaos.  With an N you must be willing to put everything on the line.  They don't like it when people stand up to them, but this is something you must do.  But when you do don't get sucked into the games.  N's are a different breed.  Would you try to convince Hitler not to kill the Jews?  Would you try to convince Stalin not to be a vicious dictator? Would you try to convince Saddom to stop what he is doing?  Of course not.  And while your X may not be a killer, they in a sense have the same attitude.  Don't damage yourself any further by trying to stop them from being who they are.  Because if you do, you may destroy yourself in the process.  Take this experience as a learning lesson and remember that inspite of what we may have been taught by our parents to look for the good in others, there are people out there that don't give a rat's ass whether you are a loving and caring woman, but what they can suck from you.  Stop letting men like this tear you apart inside and learn to love yourself again. 

Bonnieboy,

 

Thank you for responding, I appreciate your advice.  I was just looking at the 20 traits and right now my xN is being the penitent narcissist, trying to get me to feel guilty.  And boy, is he good at playing the perfect husband and father to everyone else.  I am being civil to him to try to keep everything going smoothly, but I don't know how long it will last.

 

Does anyone else have to share custody with a N who they don't trust at all?  How do you let a 2yr old child go in a car with them without freaking out everytime???  I don't want him to hurt my son with his stupidity.  HELP!

Hi shy,

 

It would probably reduce a lot of N's game-playing if you allow him *only* the visitation times and days that are required by your court order. No negotiating. If he is unhappy with that arrangement, he can address it through his lawyer.

 

2 years old is a tough age.  They are not old enough yet to tell you accurately what has happened, but are sensitive enough to pick up on people's emotions, angry dad etc.  Do you have a way to get your son into a child therapist?  A good one should be able to monitor behavior changes and provide documentation of what is happening over time.

 

In the meantime pick your battles with your son.  He probably understands that his life has changed on some level and needs as much security as possible. If dad does not provide it, that leaves you. I tried to spend time every day to cuddle, read, and do some things where all of my attention was focused my time with S, not distracted by cell phones, making dinner etc.  

 

<<How do you let a 2yr old child go in a car with them without freaking out everytime???  I don't want him to hurt my son with his stupidity.  HELP!>>

 

I also felt anxiety about this.  A friend who had been through a horrible divorce while her son was still an infant pointed out to me, "you may not agree with everything your ex does but he is your child's dad".  Unless you suspect abuse and address that legally, your son is entitled to spend time with his father. Obviously dad needs to buckle him in a car seat, feed S appropriate foods for his developmental age, give him any medications on schedule etc. You just have to have the courage to let go for a short time 3x a week. If you ever see signs that S is not being cared for adequately, those should be documented for the court because dad's visitation could be reconsidered or even revoked. 

 

It sounds like your visitation is well supervised (you are lucky there) and in a couple more years I promise you, if your son is unhappy at dad's he will be if telling you alllll about it!  

p.s. if you post on this board and the response is slow, you might try the general board instead--it seems to have a lot more traffic than this one.

Thank you all for the excellent advice, I only just left N on 8/7/08 (my son turned 2 on 8/3) and in the state i live in, we will be divorced by January and I hope I can get sole custody, and only give him what visitation he has now.   We were only married for 2yrs (i got pregnant when we were engaged) It was a 2 year engagement, I had doubts then, but I have always tried to find the best in people and this time it bit me in the but.

 

I just don't know how to go about all this legal stuff, I am trying to document this stuff, but my brain is still so scattered (my doc put me on xanex for anxiety and stress - N doesn't know this thank god) I just want to rest after my son is in bed and its really hard to focus on writing it all down and getting all the info for the divorce to the lawyer and working full time, etc.

 

My son when we left has had to change where we live, new daycare and now the visitations,  this poor kid doesn't know which end is up anymore, so I totally don't blame him for not eating much sometimes and tantruming, the daycare workers say that he stays to himself alot and plays quietly, he is struggling with the new structured schedule at this daycare (his old one had alot more free-play) but he is my sweet little boy and I will fight with everything I am to keep him that way!! 

Hello Shywolf,

You are now getting some good advice from many people who have experienced the hurtful and controlling nature of an N.  It doesn't really matter what sex they are.  However, the majority are men but women can be a hurtful N also.  Read up and get educated on the N.  There are many web sites where you can get information to protect yourself the next time you get involved with a man.  However, because N's are so sneaky and manipulative you will probably pass on many good men in your search for a good man.  This is a sad consequence of having to experience what we have experienced in a relationship with an N.  N's have a way of jading us to a point we are skeptical of most everyone who comes into our life. 

 

In regards to your little boy do what you can to show how much you love him.  Hug him everyday and say you love him.  And do this everyday.  Your little boy will know as he begans to grow who he really wants to be with but it may be a long road.  As he is growing educate him on the behaviors of N's but I wouldn't tell him that this is who his dad is.  Just let him figure it out for himself but do what you can to prevent the damage. Over time, he will "feel" the vibes of what you are talking about and will begin to steer clear of people like this.  Begin to slowly document conversations you have with your ex and the web cam is a good idea.  Treat your son the oposite of how your ex treats your son and over the years your son will know who he wants to be with.  NEVER GET INTO A SHOUTING MATCH WITH THE N IN YOUR LIFE.  This is what they want.  They want to make you look like the crazy one.  They want to bring out the worst in you.  This is how they will control you if you let them get under your skin.  N's are a slippery and cunning breed.  Remember this, an N views you and your child as an object.  A tool like a tool in a workers belt.  They don't care if the tool gets damaged.  They just throw the old tool out and replace it with another one. Protect yourself emotionally and financially.  You will make it through this but it will take time.  Get stronger emotionally and psychologically and learn to take care of yourself and be careful in your selection of men in the future.  With an N you don't ever want to be dependent on them for virtually anything.  Dependency in their minds indicates a need that can be exploited to the hilt.  Good luck with all this and you will make it through eventually.

Shy,

a few suggestions about your son....if you are angry, upset, want to kill xn etc try not to blow up in front of your child (or yell at someone on the phone about it etc) while your son is within hearing range. Even very small children can pick up on a lot of things that would surprise us. What he probably needs more than anything right now is for you to be as even as possible....you are the anchor for his little life. When he is older he is going to learn more about dad's behavior, but at 2 he needs protection from all of the drama.

 

I am not saying that if you are angry, want a good cry etc. that you should cover all that up and hide it, just that your child probably will do better in the short term if *he* does not know about it.  

Hi All,

 

I just wanted to update and say that N has tried to get me into arguements when coming to get my son.  He tried to tell me he felt a bump on my sons head and wonders how that got there? I asked him to show me this bump (he didnt).  He has tried to say that since I took the van, he wants several items from the apartment that I took that supposedly belonged to him prior to marriage. I told him to direct his demands for property to my lawyer.

 

 He has also refused to be flexible in the visit schedule (he said he would at court - I should've know it was a lie) I wanted to switch his visit to sunday last week because my cousing was coming from NH. He all of a sudden said he too had cousins coming from CA that very same day! Coincidence, no?  So I emailed him saying that we will adhere to the agreement - no more, no less. 

 

Now he is trying to be the "nice guy" again because he wants to switch days in december and see my son on Halloween.  NO WAY! That is not in the agreement. He made his bed and now that he wants something, he is being nice.  I am trying to keep contact with him to barest minimum.  I don't know what to do about the holidays yet.  I will have to ask my lawyer about visitation on thanksgiving and x-mas.

 

What do you all think? Should I give him any rope? or should I play hardball now that he has shown that he is only willing to be "flexible" when it suits HIM?

 

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Hi Shywolf,

 

I only have a minute; then I have to go. I don't have time to read what's already been said right now. Do check out the General board.

 

My kids are older, and I don't have specific advice. But I just want to encourage you, because my NH (now X) really harrassed me and used the legal process to do it. He accussed me of every bad mothering practice under the sun. When he first started in on me, I just sat down and cried.

 

Well, I've come a long way since then, and he did not win!!! Not even close. In fact, his case was dismissed "with prejudice" so I can use the bountiful evidence he provided (of his mental state) in the future if I need to. And he ended up having to pay for it and increase his child support.

 

Stay strong, and try not to let him scare you.

 

Flying

Hi Shywolf.

 

Here's a page to some of our member's experience in handling custody/visitation

 

scroll down a bit at this page.

 

Tactically, when you are in the N's vicinity, do NOT talk to the N. If N tries to talk say "you need to email me about this  N" "when I've had a chance to read your emails, I will respond with my decision."

 

and, ignore comments and answer only questions - anything else is dysfunctional interaction between two warring parents and the courts see way too much of this childish interaction with parents who have mutual mental pathologies so be careful, it's a huge red flag of mental illness in both parties.

 

What kind of 'flexible' do you want? Avoid such wishy washy arrangements. It just causes troubles. You both have the custody agreement to stick to so make sure you are doing your part.  The "bump" on the head is bauit to engage you in conversation. You see that, right? However, please do be flexible, but here's a trick. when the N asks for something, make sure you also ask for something - however, get the N to do his bit first. if he refuses, then refuse your part also.

 

Please read through the tips page I linked above.