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| | From:  Vickyonline3 (Original Message) | Sent: 24/10/2008 3:35 a.m. |
I have read that the trauma that causes this condition is usually at a very early age, when the infant is supposed to be bonding with the parents, but the parents are somehow at fault for not being there for the child. I am trying ot determine, although it really doenst matter exactly, if my stepson is suffering from NPD. From what i know about his bio mom, she was a good, caring person. I dont doubt that. His dad is a wonderful, caring, very driven man. I wouldnt say he is narcissistic, but of course I am paying close attention now. He is nothing like his son, that is for sure. So, the question I have, is could the trauma that happened to this child be a result of his mothers death when he was 15? I have heard that he was a bully, nasty, mean before that but since then it has definitely escallated. He always blames everything that happens to him on the fact that his mom is dead. He uses it as a crutch. Many people have commented that he stopped maturing at 15. Of course this must have been traumatic. My DH had to throw him out of the house at 22 becuase he was impossible to live with; holes in the walls when he got angry, nasty to his sister, calling her fat, ugly, etc. Nasty to everyone. Very intimidating. We walked on eggshells. Well, now he is married and his wonderful, beautiful wife is bearing the brunt of this behavour. He calls her names, tells her that he is going to leave her and take their son. He even video taped her in a very embarrassing moment (drinking) and told her that if she ever tries to get custody, he will show that tape in court , and no one will allow her to have her child. This is while she was pregnant! One night she called us crying that he was being so nasty to her, while she was pg, and she didint know what to do. The next day she called us and said that she was sorry for bothing us and that everything was just fine, and they were happy. I know he made her make that call. So sad. He has even cut us off from seeing our grandbaby, because we were not able to accommodate his babysitting needs one time. For the last few days I have been looking here and other sights, thinking that maybe I found an answer to this awful behavior. My only doubt is that I think his early years and his relation with parents as an infant were good. Of course I wasnt there. My last thought is that even though I am not sure about as diagnosis, and I am not a psych doc. I have come to realize there is something terribly wrong. He is abusive and nasty. I have decided to keep my distance as much as possible. I feel somewhat obsessive with trying to find an answer to this behavior. Anyone get obsessive when they finally found out that it was NPD. The saddest thing is the realization that there is no real cure. So sad. |
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| | | From: nerlami1 | Sent: 24/10/2008 3:40 a.m. |
Hi Vicky it sounds like you are on the right track; i was just trying to sort through my husbands behavior and he is young (24) and we have been married since he's 18. We're getting a divorce and i pretty firmly believe he is NPD The roots can also be things like over-attention , a parent who is ill, absent father, etc. My husbands dad was absent completely and his mom used hm as a surrogate partner pretty much. she was ill with fibromyalgia so he took care of her a lot. then she remarried when he was 11 or 12 and the guy was abusive. My point is that i think the core is there long before 15. i THINK ... i wasnt there either, but that seems to be what the literature says too... a lot of the behaviour you describe sounds like mine with my husband. hope that helps |
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| | | From: Trudy185 | Sent: 24/10/2008 5:14 a.m. |
hi Vicky, so sorry you are going thru this with stepson. That poor young woman, too.
I thought that the underlying causes for NPD had to happen pretty early, too.
If I remember correctly, there is some question about whether there is a genetic component.
I am in no way a mental health professional or medical doctor.
Is it possible that what you saw in the stepsons' biological parents is an illusion? There's literature saying that N families can seem wonderful on the outside; that the damaging behavior happens behind closed doors and often closest neighbors and friends are fooled. I don't know if this is a remote possibility. It is interesting you say he was already nasty and mean before his mom died.
It is a truism in family dynamics that children act out the dysfunction that exists between the parents.
Any chance alcoholism existed? (secretly of course, and successfully kept a secret).
Why do you say the dad is very driven? That's an interesting comment. I take it his dad then is your DH? In his young years, could bio dad have been so driven that he wasn't present for son in a way son needed? Was bio dad building a career?
Seems stepson could be this way w/o being NPD. Loss of a mother at 15 - just when a boy is trying to be independent. And, not that you should write all these details here, but, how did bio mom die? Any chance there was a suicide that got covered up? Was she depressed? Or, was she ill for a long time with what caused her death? How did bio dad deal with her death? Did he give stepson permission and space to grieve? Men are often not too good at that sort of thing. There is plenty of room here for any number of dysfunctional early patterns.
A very driven husband, a wife who dies young for whatever reason, and a son who by 15 is already mean and nasty.
You might not even need a personality disorder to get to the root of why things don't run smoothly in this young man's life.
I'm not just voyeuristically inquisitive. I'm writing these questions because: since there are other problems and/or causes that are possible (at least from hearing this much so far) I would not leap to the conclusion that there is no chance for helping him.
I would not assume NPD from this much. And that could be hopeful.
Again, though I am not a Dr.
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Thanks for your responses. Both of them have made me thing about this a little more. SS called today wondering when we were going to see grandchild. After he told us we would never see him again. The hard part is I see that each time he "turns nice again" we both cave in. We so badly want to have a good, healthy relationship with this young man and his family. I am finally at the point of realizing this and that helps a lot. I am on guard with my emotions and money. Trudy, yes, DH worked a lot, and there was a maternal grandfather with similar personality issues. Not sure what the cause is, but I do think it happened early on. He was a bully in school, and friends and relatives tell me he was "different" as a child. Overly spoiled and indulged by his mother. All these could be factors. |
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The toxic traits are largely genetic, the callous/unemotional part and the impulsive/irresponsible part. PMID: 18729612
A lot of these folks are more P than N, and there is definite agreement that P is genetic. But this is probably due to the simple fact that there is a lot more medical literature on P than N, a person who is more truly fitting for the current N diagnostics is not so likely to get treated, whereas there is no shortage of Ps to study in prisons.
Many scientists consider N/P to be a continuum.
I don't believe that childhood trauma is the root cause in most cases. There are many lovely people who had horrible childhoods. And many horrible people who had lovely childhoods. But of course a really dismal one, where the child is literally never touched, will be very damaging, but such a damaging environment is likely to be present when at least one parent is N/P him- or herself.
But all this is really academic for practical purposes: You don't need to know the cause and you don't need a diagnosis to recognize a toxic person.
Let me repeat that: you don't need a diagnosis to recognize a toxic person.
All you need to do is get out and stay out and avoid their likes in the future at all costs.
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| | | From: nerlami1 | Sent: 25/10/2008 1:11 p.m. |
You know parenchy your comments just made me remember something... My ex has a younger brother (like 15 years younger or something) Anyway he made the comment when he went down to visit him a few months ago that it seemed that his brother was EXACTLY like him...thinking he was going to rule the world like Hitler, and being very self centered and aggressive etc (basically he described all his P traits.) He was having anger issues with school and getting into trouble as well. Seemed cold and indifferent. I remember thinking how genetic things must be in his family. His mother is a very nice, doting mom...albeit definitely a smotherer....and using the kids as her surrogate partner. The whole family is very odd though... his aunts and uncles all have very odd relationship issues... all the way back to a story about the great grandmother being kidnapped by a blackfoot indian and getting pregnant, and then marrying her rapist. I just remembered now though....my ex and his brother have different dads....but both dads were physically abusive and cruel as heck. Hows that for odd? |
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[both dads were physically abusive and cruel as heck.
Hows that for odd?]
It's not that odd. Women who choose one abusive partner tend to choose another abusive partner after the first one doesn't work out.
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Vicky, I have tried to get some answers from NH about his childhood but he doesn't easily give it up. I once asked him if he was abused, maybe sexually, when he was young and he said to me "ME, nobody would DARE do that to ME!!!!" I was just floored! From what I can see, he was very much over-indulged by his mother and later in his teenage years, beaten down by his father. His family is Vietnamese, 4 brothers, 1 sister. I have learned thru the 7 years of being with him that this entire family (even extended) are a force to be reckoned with. I may sound crazy here, but they are all N! Yes, I am serious. From mother, down to aunt to brothers and sister. I am sure there may be some correlation between that and the culture. I know I have heard from some Vietnamese women that they would NEVER consider marrying a Vietnamese man, they are too controlling. Boy am I sorry I didn't look into NH a little closer and longer! Of course he was absolutely perfect for me in the beginning. And I can definitely say Vicky that since I finally got clued in to the fact that H is N, I have definitely been obsessed, and I am hating this that I am spending so much time thinking about him and HIS problems but I cannot stop learning and reading. I guess I hope that sooner or later I will find the answers. But mostly, I cannot stop reading the horror stories, such as yours with your step-son and feeling amazed every time that these N's all went to the same school of abuse and manipulation. Your SSN sounds like a nightmare. Peace be with his beautiful wife and child..... fly |
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Timetofly, Getting a N to expose their weaknesses, ones like a bad childhood, is like getting a vampire to sunbath. If they did have a difficult childhood, at first they will spin it in their favor..."it wasn't that bad" or they'll totally lie about it. |
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Parenchyma, This is perfectly true. "You don't need to know the cause and you don't need a diagnosis to recognize a toxic person." For so long I felt it was my responsibility to help this young man, to try to love him, and to have him love me. Not as a mother, but as a special person in his life. it is really a great relief to realize that I dont have to "fix" him and actually, nothing I can do will fix him. So, I can feel some relief knowing that I have done what I can for him, and I can continue to be loving with an understanding that the person is uncapable of returning those feelings. And I can protect myself from emotional and financial destruction. On the daughter in law side, I spoke with her at length,and after all she told me I am convinced more and more that he has a personality disorder. I told her so. She wants to go see a counselor, which I agreed was a very smart idea. He refuses to go with her. No surprise there. There seems to be a common link of so many of these men having mothers who overindulged them. Something to think about. |
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I've been thinking too that NPD could be genetic. My nm's brothers and sister all have very strong characteristics of NPD, as did their father, my grandfather. My older brother seems like he also has NPD. It really seems to run in the family. Maybe someday they will isolate a gene for it..... Hugs, Had Enough |
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I certainly was obsessive in trying to figure out what the hell was wrong. I needed answers to save my sanity.
I think Nism is probably like a lot of other illness -- who knows why? Maybe nurture, maybe genetics - there isn't any clear cut evidence one way or the other. There are too many instances where neither seem to apply. It does manifest itself early on though, it is well ingrained by the time they are 18.
I agree there is something wrong with his behavior and you are right to step in. Somebody has got to be looking out for the baby's welfare.
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| | | From: Trudy185 | Sent: 29/10/2008 4:19 a.m. |
Hi Vicky, wanted to catch up and see how things were unfolding.
The indulgent mother is interesting. Why does that also make me think controlling? Sometimes a child who is being spoiled is also being controlled. There are levels of messages. Like, you'll get all this good stuff if you figure out what I want and give it to me. Child appears to be getting peaches & cream but is also getting subtle messages all the time, what they are supposed to say and do, how to please the parent. Kind of like a deal is made, and the child picks it up quickly. All unconscious on parent's part.
Don't know why indulgent also makes me think controlling.
This stuff is so hard to get. It is seeping in in layers. I think I understand only to discover I don't, and have to process it another level deeper.
((((huggs)))))) |
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Trudy - Interesting about the messages , it is true how kids get these subtle hints and behave accordingly. Falling into line. I dont know enough about the intimacies of his childhood. I guess none of us know how other people's childhood really was or how it affected the child. I find in my family that 2 siblings could have completely different perceptions of the same parents or family life. Bumpy ride - wish I could do more for them. Need to cautiously advise my DIL. Afraid if I tell her too much she will stop talking to me. At this point i think I am the only one she talks to. She doesnt want to upset her own mother with the stories of his behavior and she is feeling separate from her friends. |
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