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Just something I was thinking about when I was out walking the dog today, and the stage of healing I am at w/ xN right now. I am past wanting him, past ever trusting him again, totally on board for seeing him for the loon that he is, but I still have a total boner about the fact that he had the audacity to cause me as much pain as he did without ever owning up to it. It is my desire to get over this hurdle quickly, because I believe that anger (and subsequent bitterness) shows on us, let alone how it makes us feel & act. So I have been thinking about cases where people have not surmounted this stage. And I'm horrified to admit out loud that I now understand where some of the world's most horrific behavior stems from. It is in response to wanting the person who hurt you to hurt as bad as he made you hurt. The person who will not take ownership of the pain he caused you. This is where you find the women we hear about committing horrendous crimes against their own children, the OW, the burning bed.....It may very well stem from a pain so great and so invalidated by the one who caused it, that no matter what the price, these women WILL make him pay. Truth be told, I never, before this happened to me, understood that concept. Well, I still really don't, but what I have come to understand is the idea of "no matter what this costs me, that SOB is going to feel the same kind of pain he caused me." Add a bit of instability & psychosis & you have all the makings of a Lifetime movie. And I wonder if the person who caused the pain would have taken responsibility, owned it, and tried to walk with the person in pain through her grief, if it would have made the difference in whether or not the crimes would have been committed. Thinking about this is a great motivator to find a way -- ANY way -- to move quickly beyond the stage where we are locked in anger. |
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As my husband would say: This is why we have malpractice payouts. He believes many distraught families would go beserk without some sort of justice. Obviously there are honest mistakes made in medicine- but people die and that - to the families- needs to be attoned for. Without some sense of justice- people can and do act out. That said- aside from attacking the N- I do not understand revenge at all costs, at all. Honesty was my closure and that's all I am saying. I refused to be his front anymore- and what happened happened. That was his own doing- not that he "suffered" save the inconvenience of finding new NS. |
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Oh and a new source of income/insurance/babysitter....but who's counting. |
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Revenge at all costs, IMO, comes about because justice has NOT been served, and because someone just went off the deep end. There definitely has to be some sort of pychosis involved. But I believe there are unstable people who may driven to that point by the fact that there has been no atonement for the pain the woman was caused. So you make a good point, Hazel. |
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[ am past wanting him, past ever trusting him again, totally on board for seeing him for the loon that he is, but I still have a total boner about the fact that he had the audacity to cause me as much pain as he did without ever owning up to it.]
I have this, too. It's the main reason why I am still here, I still have that searing pain.
But I don't think it's possible for him to hurt the way he hurt me, his brain does not work that way.
I don't think I will ever have "revenge" or anything like that. I don't think anyone will ever be able to hurt him the way he hurt me. I don't see any karmic justice. I know he has pain but it's a different sort. |
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HMR and Chatty, I too am feeling the same things. I'd like to think it's because I am near the end of the bitterness and i feel angry enough finally and have forgiven myself. I think this is a good thing. It still hurts though. And I want it to hurt him too. i fantasize about his family finding out the things he has done and the lies he has told and feeling so humilated. But he doesn't care and they are just like him. I DO believe, however, that people like this make their own bed and will have to lie in it, so to speak. karma is a great thing. Narcissists/Sociopaths/psychopaths appear normal and successful but arent or they won't be for long. 1. feeling vengeful is normal but we should focus on what benefits us. Vengence is short lived, and we (good people) would not consider doing something to another human which would damage them forever (as much as we like to fantasize about it). they don't care about the things we care about so it's hard for us to relate to what may hurt them. Is there anything they truly care about that they can't replace like any other object? 2. they are already tortured by themselves and their inability to control, which makes them crazy. They have to live in this world they have created and the additional sociopathy they have breeded. They creat their offspring in their own image and THAT is their cross to bear forever. Even his adult children were objects of control and still are with his x wife. He doesn't love them, he just doesn't want to lose out to his x wife. 3. Have faith that others will see through them, maybe not as intensely as we have or with the same intimacy. ANd they will continue to fool others but also have faith that they will do the same things and display the same behaviors. We should be happy that we have ZERO tolerance for this. They will find someone who is longer lasting supply. Not because they love them, but because that person will put up with the abuse. 4. We have a future that can build and develop. The purgatory they live in is stagnant and reeks of narcissistic infestation. It will never change, only the faces will be different. |
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I think that is a very interesting thought, hearmeroar. I totally agree...I was SO hurt by the XN and I think I have even posted on here how much I wish he could feel the same kind of pain.
I know he won't, ever.
But I'm getting better by the day, moving on with my life, and rebuffing every attempt the XN makes to drag me back into his quagmire of a life. I have zero trust in him or anything he says, and I do think one of the healing things about this is that because he is a complete emotional void, he keeps showing me over and over again how right I am not to trust him and not to allow him in my life. The more he emails and sends ridiculous texts and tries to be "nice," after everything that has happened, I see him for what he is. A nothing. He is destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over, and he will never be happy or satisfied.
I, however, am determined to be happy. Life is good, my friends, it really is. An N, or anyone, really, only has as much power over us as we let them. I will not let the fact that this person, that I loved and trusted, betrayed me on multiple levels and used and abused me affect my trust or love in other people. He has done enough. No more.
It doesn't mean I still don't get angry, though. I do, oh, I do. But it's slowly becoming less all-consuming. |
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People have a basic need to be validated and heard. My therapist mentioned "The Twilight Zone" episode where the passenger in the plane (a man) saw a monster on the wing of the plane. He kept looking to his fellow passengers and the stewardess to validate what he saw, that they saw it, too. At the end of the show, the man is taken away in a straight jacket. The question is then asked by the host, "Was the man crazy because he saw an imaginary monster, or did the man go crazy because no one would believe (validate) what he saw?" Our abusers can be so skilled and cunning that they have themselves and everyone else (the courts, family members, friends, coworkers, etc.) convinced that they are ok and we are not. This can drive us mad. Don't let anyone else tell you that you didn't see or experience what you saw and experienced. Victory comes from being wise enough to say that kind of crazy-making is not for you and getting out and staying NC. True mental health comes from owning reality. The N's never own reality and create an altered reality where they do not have to take personal responsibility for anything they do. Be grateful to take an exit from crazy world. Remember, like Aphrodite said, the N is a robot with one foot nailed to the floor...he's just going in circles and circles and circles and not progressing in life. Who wants to be a partner in that when we have so much more we can do with our lives since our foot is not nailed to the floor? We are different. We DO take responsibility for our mistakes, learn from them, and grow. THAT is the best revenge! |
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HMR, I went through the same response as you describe. I wanted to cause as much suffering to N as he has caused me and in the process I got more and more angry. The flames of anger seemed to feed themselves. At one point I was shocked by what I was thinking of as possibilities. That is when I turned away from thinking about him. I forced myself to either not to think about him at all, or to keep reminding myself that he is ill and cannot help who and what he is. He pays throughout his whole life for who he is. I don't have to do anything, really, he hangs himself if given enough rope, I can just sit back and watch. I got past my anger for me, I wanted to get rid of the bitternes, it was hurting me. It was killing me. I was doing that to myself. So I "buried" N, I buried my thoughts and all my past. I visualized digging a grave deep down and putting into it everything I ever had with N, all my emotions, all my memories and filling up the grave and walking away with all cut out of me. And my steps became light as all the burden N brought on me was lifted. I erected a barrier, a wall around the grave so I cannot go back even for a visit. I can only go in one direction...forward. |
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newstrength. The monster analogy is EXCELENT...... that is how I felt when the XN/P started to take ownership my friends and talk badly about me, leave accusatory letters in my mailbox and all around my home so my kids would find them. I started to become so defensive and reactive that i looked like the insane one...... STIL people don't believe what has happened, because they don't and won't know him intimately. It doesn't affect them personally so they don't care. I do, however, have a few friends, and my father, who didn't like him from the beginning. My dad never did and one friend in particular who didn't like what he "stood for" from day 1. They still stand by me. Those are the people who help in the healing. My therapist said that you have to be heard enough before you heal and that is why sometimes it feels like you are obsessing when you talk about it over and over. It's part of the healing and you won't get past it until YOU are ready. You can't force it. |
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X, I agree with your therapist about talking about it. That is why this group is so important. We get it! We've been there. We validate one another. |
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I'm not really angry anymore. And THAT is why I keep coming here. To be reminded. Because now that I am no longer angry, I could fall prey to his games. And I don't want that to happen. I don't care if I come here for the rest of my life. So long as I never find myself naked and in bed with that creep again. For that matter, I don't want to be fully clothed and in his presence -- ever. GN |
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Anger is the last stage I remember, and it was a difficult one to get past. To have someone cause so much harm and refuse to accept responsibility - much less find a way to make everything your fault - it's inhuman. I don't think we're equipped to deal with something like that. But we have to. They are never going to acknowledge fault, or apologize, or have an epiphany. You have to come to terms with it and get on with your life.
When your life starts being your life and not about what he's done, the anger starts to fade. So let it go, get out there, and make your life about you again. |
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goingnorth2,,,,,,,you said it perfectly for me...it is still why i am here...i am no longer angry...i just don't want to slip... Thank you everyone for sharing everything you do and saying it so eloquently.... Sweetpea |
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| | From: samvak | Sent: 28/10/2008 7:10 p.m. |
Traumas as Social Interactions By: Dr. Sam Vaknin
Malignant Self Love - Buy the Book - Click HERE!!! Relationships with Abusive Narcissists - Buy the e-Books - Click HERE!!! ("He" in this text - to mean "He" or "She"). We react to serious mishaps, life altering setbacks, disasters, abuse, and death by going through the phases of grieving. Traumas are the complex outcomes of psychodynamic and biochemical processes. But the particulars of traumas depend heavily on the interaction between the victim and his social milieu. It would seem that while the victim progresses from denial to helplessness, rage, depression and thence to acceptance of the traumatizing events - society demonstrates a diametrically opposed progression. This incompatibility, this mismatch of psychological phases is what leads to the formation and crystallization of trauma. PHASE I Victim phase I - DENIAL The magnitude of such unfortunate events is often so overwhelming, their nature so alien, and their message so menacing - that denial sets in as a defence mechanism aimed at self preservation. The victim denies that the event occurred, that he or she is being abused, that a loved one passed away. Society phase I - ACCEPTANCE, MOVING ON The victim's nearest ("Society") - his colleagues, his employees, his clients, even his spouse, children, and friends - rarely experience the events with the same shattering intensity. They are likely to accept the bad news and move on. Even at their most considerate and empathic, they are likely to lose patience with the victim's state of mind. They tend to ignore the victim, or chastise him, to mock, or to deride his feelings or behaviour, to collude to repress the painful memories, or to trivialize them. This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited" Click HERE to buy the print edition from Barnes and Noble or HERE to buy it from Amazon or HERE to buy it from The Book Source Click HERE to buy the print edition from the publisher and receive a BONUS PACK Click HERE to buy various electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships Click HERE to buy the ENTIRE SERIES of eight electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships Summary Phase I The mismatch between the victim's reactive patterns and emotional needs and society's matter-of-fact attitude hinders growth and healing. The victim requires society's help in avoiding a head-on confrontation with a reality he cannot digest. Instead, society serves as a constant and mentally destabilizing reminder of the root of the victim's unbearable agony (the Job syndrome). PHASE II Victim phase II - HELPLESSNESS Denial gradually gives way to a sense of all-pervasive and humiliating helplessness, often accompanied by debilitating fatigue and mental disintegration. These are among the classic symptoms of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). These are the bitter results of the internalization and integration of the harsh realization that there is nothing one can do to alter the outcomes of a natural, or man-made, catastrophe. The horror in confronting one's finiteness, meaninglessness, negligibility, and powerlessness - is overpowering. Society phase II - DEPRESSION The more the members of society come to grips with the magnitude of the loss, or evil, or threat represented by the grief inducing events - the sadder they become. Depression is often little more than suppressed or self-directed anger. The anger, in this case, is belatedly induced by an identified or diffuse source of threat, or of evil, or loss. It is a higher level variant of the "fight or flight" reaction, tampered by the rational understanding that the "source" is often too abstract to tackle directly. Summary Phase II Thus, when the victim is most in need, terrified by his helplessness and adrift - society is immersed in depression and unable to provide a holding and supporting environment. Growth and healing is again retarded by social interaction. The victim's innate sense of annulment is enhanced by the self-addressed anger (=depression) of those around him. PHASE III Both the victim and society react with RAGE to their predicaments. In an effort to narcissistically reassert himself, the victim develops a grandiose sense of anger directed at paranoidally selected, unreal, diffuse, and abstract targets (=frustration sources). By expressing aggression, the victim re-acquires mastery of the world and of himself. Members of society use rage to re-direct the root cause of their depression (which is, as we said, self directed anger) and to channel it safely. To ensure that this expressed aggression alleviates their depression - real targets must are selected and real punishments meted out. In this respect, "social rage" differs from the victim's. The former is intended to sublimate aggression and channel it in a socially acceptable manner - the latter to reassert narcissistic self-love as an antidote to an all-devouring sense of helplessness. In other words, society, by itself being in a state of rage, positively enforces the narcissistic rage reactions of the grieving victim. This, in the long run, is counter-productive, inhibits personal growth, and prevents healing. It also erodes the reality test of the victim and encourages self-delusions, paranoidal ideation, and ideas of reference. PHASE IV Victim Phase IV - DEPRESSION As the consequences of narcissistic rage - both social and personal - grow more unacceptable, depression sets in. The victim internalizes his aggressive impulses. Self directed rage is safer but is the cause of great sadness and even suicidal ideation. The victim's depression is a way of conforming to social norms. It is also instrumental in ridding the victim of the unhealthy residues of narcissistic regression. It is when the victim acknowledges the malignancy of his rage (and its anti-social nature) that he adopts a depressive stance. This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited" Click HERE to buy the print edition from Barnes and Noble or HERE to buy it from Amazon or HERE to buy it from The Book Source Click HERE to buy the print edition from the publisher and receive a BONUS PACK Click HERE to buy various electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships Click HERE to buy the ENTIRE SERIES of eight electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships Society Phase IV - HELPLESSNESS People around the victim ("society") also emerge from their phase of rage transformed. As they realize the futility of their rage, they feel more and more helpless and devoid of options. They grasp their limitations and the irrelevance of their good intentions. They accept the inevitability of loss and evil and Kafkaesquely agree to live under an ominous cloud of arbitrary judgement, meted out by impersonal powers. Summary Phase IV Again, the members of society are unable to help the victim to emerge from a self-destructive phase. His depression is enhanced by their apparent helplessness. Their introversion and inefficacy induce in the victim a feeling of nightmarish isolation and alienation. Healing and growth are once again retarded or even inhibited. PHASE V Victim Phase V - ACCEPTANCE AND MOVING ON Depression - if pathologically protracted and in conjunction with other mental health problems - sometimes leads to suicide. But more often, it allows the victim to process mentally hurtful and potentially harmful material and paves the way to acceptance. Depression is a laboratory of the psyche. Withdrawal from social pressures enables the direct transformation of anger into other emotions, some of them otherwise socially unacceptable. The honest encounter between the victim and his own (possible) death often becomes a cathartic and self-empowering inner dynamic. The victim emerges ready to move on. Society Phase V - DENIAL Society, on the other hand, having exhausted its reactive arsenal - resorts to denial. As memories fade and as the victim recovers and abandons his obsessive-compulsive dwelling on his pain - society feels morally justified to forget and forgive. This mood of historical revisionism, of moral leniency, of effusive forgiveness, of re-interpretation, and of a refusal to remember in detail - leads to a repression and denial of the painful events by society. Summary Phase V This final mismatch between the victim's emotional needs and society's reactions is less damaging to the victim. He is now more resilient, stronger, more flexible, and more willing to forgive and forget. Society's denial is really a denial of the victim. But, having ridden himself of more primitive narcissistic defences - the victim can do without society's acceptance, approval, or look. Having endured the purgatory of grieving, he has now re-acquired his self, independent of society's acknowledgement. Also read: Psychology of Torture Back to La-la Land Mourning the Narcissist Surviving the Narcissist The Three Forms of Closure How Victims are Affected by Abuse Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) The Malignant Optimism of the Abused Spousal (Domestic) Abuse and Violence Verbal and Emotional Abuse - Articles Menu Copyright Notice This material is copyrighted. Free, unrestricted use is allowed on a non commercial basis. The author's name and a link to this Website must be incorporated in any reproduction of the material for any use and by any means. Go Back to Home Page! Frequently Asked Questions - Pathological Narcissism Excerpts from Archives of the Narcissism List The Narcissism List Home Page Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited A Macedonian Encounter Internet: A Medium or a Message? Write to me: [email protected] or [email protected] language=javascript>postamble();</SCRIPT> |
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Read and copied this on this site four years ago. I used Mirroring Stage to divorce him.. Works like a CHARM! Apathy Stage is bliss. If someone asks you something about XNH, you truthfully answer 'don't know, don't care' and YOU DON'T. Happy Reading, Mambo If a relationship with a N is life in the Twilight Zone, then healing from a pattern of relationships with Ns is the Dawn Zone. When N-Codependents despise the Ns in their life for the abuse enough to want it to stop, really and truly stop, the beginning of freedom has begun. Leaving any N has more layers than a Napoleon pastry, each one painful in a different way." NickySkye
Grieving a Narcissist by NickySkye 2005 Dear Recovery Friends: Grieving the loss of a relationship with a Narcissist has many layers. They are not the usual layers of grieving a healthy person. The problem is that some of the layers ARE the same as grieving a healthy person but then there are layers reserved only for the loss of an N relationship, which are not understood by the 'civilian' population and can ONLY be understood by those who have survived a significant relationship with a Narcissist or Psychopath.
In a healthy relationship break-up one grieves:
The dream of love not continuing.
The break in the continuity of the familiar.
The pain of saying goodbye.
The sadness of the exchange of ill will in the parting.
A sense of loss.
Living with the nostalgia of things one used to do together, broken memories of past pleasures.
Hope interrupted.
Well wishing put aside for self-survival.
Those are typical feelings that can come up after a break-up of a healthy relationship.But grieving an N there are other ingredients, not available to the public understanding, such as:
The nightmare of going from being idealized to being devalued.
Discovering the web of lies on many levels.
Coming to terms with the terrible, terrible understanding that one was not an object of love but a source of Narcissistic Supply. That in itself is so painful that it has many stages of comprehension . The dawning of understanding that one's nostalgia and tender memories of affection for the N were corrupted by the N's agenda.
Not being believed by people about some of the weird things the N did and feeling isolated in one's grief more than in grieving a healthy break-up.
Discovering with some horror, mingled with relief of a strange kind, that the person one loved was not the person one thought one loved. Everything about the relationship shifts into the garish clinical light of the DSMlV. One's object of former love is now something of a lab specimen, "a typical N".
Not being able to let go with love but having to let go only with understanding. The closure itself has the sadness of knowing the ex is disfigured, deformed but always dangerous.
When one hears one's healthy ex is having sex with a new person, married, or has gone on in their life, there is a sting of sadness, the nostalgia for 'what could have been'. That itself, the astringency becomes part of the detaching. And as time goes by that sting becomes a well wishing, including the ex in one's loving prayers. The ex gets woven into the fabric of one's fond memories.
But with an xN, news of their present life always bring chills of fear and twinges of unresolved grieving. Who are they hurting now? Will they ever come into my life again? Was I not important to them, was all that for nothing?
Knowing about the N's need for Narcissistic Supply one cannot help thinking will they come back for my NS? Was *my* NS something they treasured and miss? But in the light of day, understanding the N means that one is not valued for who one IS but only as a commodity, for NS, empty, meaningless NS.
After the detachment is physically complete with an N there is the nagging abyss of was that all for nothing? It's a terrible loss and there is nowhere to go with that loss. It's static. It doesn't evolve into lost love. It just remains as a loss. Grieving a N is a burden, it's a hole in one's life.
Love, NickySkye
The Seven Stages of Recovery from Narcissist-Inflicted Trauma courtesy Still Smilin
1) The Roadkill Stage This is when you finally hit bottom due to the experience with a Narcissist.
2) The Realization Stage. This is when the answers to the questions that have been plaguing you begin to get answered and you now know what it is you have been dealing with all this time. You begin to research everything you can find on Narcissism. You usually feel better that you know, but the sense of betrayal begins to hit you like a Mack truck. Unfortunately, you start to feel angry at yourself for letting it go on for so long.
3) The Anger Stage This is when the full impact of what you went through hits home and all hell breaks loose! Anger is uncomfortable, but I think it is a necessary step towards healing. At first, it is like an erupting volcano, then it usually evolves in focusing on how to get through. If you don't let as much of the anger out at this stage, you will stay stuck for a longer period of time. (I did this).
4) Taking Affirmative Action Stage This is when you begin to learn to effectively focus your new-found knowledge into making life decisions. This is also the period where you begin to learn and practice techniques on how to protect yourself from the Narcissist. This is the stage where some decide on divorce, relocating, changing jobs, and lifestyle changes. This is also a time of great upheaval, because the Narcissist usually knows that the "gig is up" The Narcissist will fight you tooth and nail to win. This is a crucial stage in healing, because it is at this stage that the Narcissist will also try to "put on the charm" to return you to status quo. The Narcissist can be very vicious at this stage. It is usually best to have as little contact as possible with the Narcissist. It is also the time to continue to learn about how to continue to protect yourself and continue to focus on you and your healing.
5) The Fall-Out Stage This is when you become more comfortable in your knowledge of how to deal with the Narcissist, where you begin to forgive yourself, where you begin to feel better about yourself and your abilities. You are actively planning your future, getting to know yourself again, and you notice how much better physically and emotionally you feel out of the presence of the Narcissist. The fog of Narcissism has lifted somewhat and you begin to get your confidence back. While this is happening, you are still experiencing the waves of the past stages, it seems to come in cycles that diminish in intesity over time.
6) The Mirroring Stage Not everyone goes through this stage, it is a personal decision. This is when you mirror the Narcissists behavior back at them, effectively scaring them off! I was particularily fond of this stage, because it allowed me to siphon off the anger and project it back to the person who caused it. It is effective in scaring off the Narcissist, but sometimes it takes many sessions of "mirroring" before the stubborn Narcissist finally "gets it". Unfortunately for many victims, many Narcissists aren't willing to accept that it is OVER and continually try to get back under the victims skin using guilt, fear, pity, threats, violence and financial abuse. Many Narcissists keep "coming back for more NS."
Depending on how you handle the Narcissist in this stage, it will depend on how long this stage lasts. If you, even for a moment give the Narcissist ANY NS at all, show any vulnerability, sympathy, fear, or confusion, it will put you back a few stages and you will have to work your way through again. This cycle can happen many times.
7) Realization and Apathy Once you effectively block all means of communication with the Narcissist as efficiently as possible, protect yourself from them as much as you can, gain knowledge and confidence in yourself, you reach a stage of realization that there was nothing you could have done to help or prevent the nightmare that you just lived through. You start looking for effective ways to manage your life, work towards your new future and close the door in the face of the Narcissist. The most effective way that I have found to do this is with APATHY. Apathy works. It requires very little work on your part. You display no outward emotions towards the Narcissist, who seems to forever be trying to re-enter your life for the coveted NS, you yawn frequently whenever they have something to say, you outright IGNORE their existence as if they died.
Eventually, in a sense they do die, because without your attention, without your sympathy, without your guilt, without your adoration, without your anger, and without your fear, they do wither away and die. If there is nothing for them to affirm their existence through you, and they cannot exist around you. It is not to say that they won't try. They want to be able to evoke an emotional response in you. If you don't give them any, then eventually, like Pavlov's dog they figure out the bowl is empty and move on to the next victim. This stage can take some time, because as we know, the Narcissist does not give up on precious supply sources easily.
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