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General : Clueless about Normal "Love"
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 Message 1 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameBusyLiving08  (Original Message)Sent: 28/10/2008 2:33 p.m.
After twenty years of marriage and a two month separation from Narcissist Husband, I am realizing that I have no idea what normal is. I am constantly checking my reality and opinion shopping.

N husband emailed me yesterday that he loved me. But isn't love supposed to feel good most of the time? It's not about words, it's about actions, isn't it?

Partners are supposed to listen to each other and work towards solutions, aren't they? Isn't it supposed to be reciprocal and mutually gratifying? Don't people who love each other want to spend time together other than when they are having sex?

My husband was always looking for ways to avoid me and the kids unless it was a visible thing - like coaching sports teams for the kids or going to a social function.

He played - golf, tennis, paintball, sailing, computer games, anything to escape. Is that love?

I have to believe that love considers the other persons feelings at least some of the time doesn't it?

My therapist says if I can make it my fault, then I can still magically believe I can fix it (the marriage). Am I crazy? Doesn't love feel like sharing and intimacy and partnering?

I've been in this for 20 years plus two dating. My reality is very skewed. My husband says love is a decision. I say it's a feeling that comes from your heart.

Any help is appreciated.

BL


First  Previous  2-12 of 12  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 12 in Discussion 
From: bestgrleverSent: 28/10/2008 3:52 p.m.
Ah BL, my heart goes out to you. I think these are questions that everyone deals with, but coming out of a relationship with an N they are even more difficult.

Having only spent 2 years with my XN, and not 20 like you (you poor thing!), my perception of love was not irreversibly skewed by the XN's treatment of me. All along, I thought what you thought - that love is about how you treat someone, how you show them that you care and vice-versa, how you feel when you are around them. And because XN treated me like essentially like dirt, didn't seem to care to spend time with me unless it was a public outing where he could show me off, I came to the very real conclusion that he did not love me. He said he did, even as we were breaking up and even when he started dating OW he still told me how much he loved me.

Thing is, I don't care whether he thinks he loves me or not or whether he loved me as much as he is capable, blah blah blah. Because the reality is that I don't love him. I became attached to him, which is very different. But he has shown me in so many ways that he does not love me the way I deserve to be loved. I do not feel good when I am with him. I might feel good for a second, until he does something crappy again and makes me feel bad again. That won't change.

In your case, I would focus less on what he is saying (I don't know your story but if he's a typical N he will say anything to get the result he wants) and more on how YOU feel. You won't make him understand love the way you do. You can't make him love you the way you deserve to be loved. I would guess at this point that you don't love him either - how could you? From what you say, he has done very little to deserve that love and as you pull away from him you will see more and more clearly that what you had with your husband was not love.

Of course, the problem with some N's is that they are not un-intelligent, and to an extent your husband is correct. Love is ALSO a decision. Unfortunately for him, that theory also mitigates in favor of your leaving! Why would you choose to love someone who treats you badly?!

I don't know if this helps at all, but these are just my thoughts. I wish you the best of luck and I think you are doing great!


Reply
 Message 3 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameBusyLiving08Sent: 28/10/2008 4:53 p.m.
Thanks for your response, bestgriever.

I don't love him. Surely not. He's never been what you describe. I am attached. It's hard to detach after 20 years. And even though I am happier with him out of my life, something keeps me drawn to him.

How crazy is that? I often who's the more emotionally disturbed, the Narcissist or their victims after years of abuse.

We have two teenagers. I need to get mentally healthy and it will never happen around him.

Reply
 Message 4 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamebumpy_rider2Sent: 28/10/2008 5:09 p.m.
You hit the nail on the head Busy. In the end, they are the exact same as when we met them (only meaner), and we're emotional basket cases. Having problems detaching? Yeah....trauma bonding, brain-washing and PTSD. Things I never believed in until they happened to me. I realized just how fragile the human psyche is, even those that had it all, and had it all together.

When I was first searching the internet for answers, I read that when you are loved, you feel loved. You never 'feel loved' with an N because you just can't fake caring about somebody. Everything in your post was true. It's all about feeling loved. When it's real, you never have to question it.

Reply
 Message 5 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameBusyLiving08Sent: 28/10/2008 5:38 p.m.
It's funny, since I filed for divorce, my husband keeps pointing out all the mean things I've done lately. For instance I filed for a divorce, I won't let him just walk in and use the washer/dryer, my attorney filed a Motion for Default when he wouldn't file an Answer.

It's so odd, he refers to these things as deliberately me being mean to him. Like a kid on a playground.

He sent an email which discussed reconciliation, but never followed up.

I don't know where I'm going here except it's like he feels no responsibility to do anything. Like this was done in a vacuum and all he has to do is play the wide-eyed innocent. He sort of hints that I just got mad last year and on a whim decided to file for divorce just because I was having a bad day.

He says the only problem is that I won't let go of the past. If I would, we could be fine.

Does any of this make sense. I swear, I've tried to explain and it's like talking to a tree. He hears nothing I say and only sees this through his eyes.

Of course that's true. He's a narcissist. Hello. Did I just start to discuss him like he's normal.

He looks normal -- that always throws me.

Reply
 Message 6 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamebumpy_rider2Sent: 28/10/2008 5:47 p.m.
Gosh Busy! That's the same way my xN acted. When I took off my ring, I was doing it "just to hurt his feelings". Yeah....right....the years of crying and explaining and begging him to treat me with some dignity and respect had nothing to do with it. The unbelievable thing is that they DO have themselves convinced that we're the bad guys.

They absolutely can't accept that the failure of the r/s had anything to do with them, it interferes with their over-inflated image of themselves. Them good....we bad.

I hear you Busy....I hear everything you're saying.


Reply
 Message 7 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamefemfreeSent: 28/10/2008 5:48 p.m.
Hi busy.  Why are you so hung up on the "love"?
 
I think it may be best to ditch that feeling in lieu of something like 'compatability/responsibility/shared interests'
 
You write...
My husband was always looking for ways to avoid me and the kids
N husband emailed me yesterday that he loved me.
 
This isnt' 'love' or any of the other nouns, this is manipulation and abuse.
 
He is using the LOVE word because apparently that's the word you react to.  You are allowing this man to really screw with your thinking.
 
 
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 8 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameBusyLiving08Sent: 28/10/2008 6:15 p.m.
Good point, Femfree,


Thank you for that very honest reply. It occurs to me that I am just acting out some silly romantic notion and expecting him to fit the mold.

In many ways, I can be just as childish as he is. He wants no responsibility whatsoever, like an 8 year old. He just wants to show up and be catered to. I, on the other hand, childishly want to be love and coddled like a little girl at times.

If I use my grown up brain and really look at the dysfunction of the relationship, he used and abused and I let him get away with it hoping he'd love me. Fat chance.

You make an excellent point on the fundamentals of the dance.

It will be difficult divorcing this man because he is so entitled, so unable to accept any blame, criticism or responsibility, that he believes taking the kids to Jason's Deli on Sunday somehow means he contributing more than his share financially. It will be a long haul.

Reply
 Message 9 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknameshamu571Sent: 28/10/2008 6:15 p.m.
Hi BL,

Your post could be written by me. My NH did everything you described. I felt same way about love. I still struggle with that but I am taking it by a day.

I read "translation guide" on the left side of this page. It helped me understand and prepared what my NH means. they speak different language.

You know what you feel. Trust your feeling. You will be fine.

Take care, SHAMU

Reply
 Message 10 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 28/10/2008 6:43 p.m.

The Pathology of Love

By: Dr. Sam Vaknin

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The unpalatable truth is that falling in love is, in some ways, indistinguishable from a severe pathology. Behavior changes are reminiscent of psychosis and, biochemically speaking, passionate love closely imitates substance abuse. Appearing in the BBC series Body Hits on December 4, 2002 Dr. John Marsden, the head of the British National Addiction Center, said that love is addictive, akin to cocaine and speed. Sex is a "booby trap", intended to bind the partners long enough to bond.

Using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI), Andreas Bartels and Semir Zeki of University College in London showed that the same areas of the brain are active when abusing drugs and when in love. The prefrontal cortex - hyperactive in depressed patients - is inactive when besotted. How can this be reconciled with the low levels of serotonin that are the telltale sign of both depression and infatuation - is not known.

Other MRI studies, conducted in 2006-7 by Dr. Lucy Brown, a professor in the department of neurology and neuroscience at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, and her colleagues, revealed that the caudate and the ventral tegmental, brain areas involved in cravings (e.g., for food) and the secretion of dopamine, are lit up in subjects who view photos of their loved ones. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that affects pleasure and motivation. It causes a sensation akin to a substance-induced high.

On August 14, 2007, the New Scientist News Service gave the details of a study originally published in the Journal of Adolescent Health earlier that year. Serge Brand of the Psychiatric University Clinics in Basel, Switzerland, and his colleagues interviewed 113 teenagers (17-year old), 65 of whom reported having fallen in love recently.

The conclusion? The love-struck adolescents slept less, acted more compulsively more often, had "lots of ideas and creative energy", and were more likely to engage in risky behavior, such as reckless driving.

"'We were able to demonstrate that adolescents in early-stage intense romantic love did not differ from patients during a hypomanic stage,' say the researchers. This leads them to conclude that intense romantic love in teenagers is a 'psychopathologically prominent stage'".

But is it erotic lust or is it love that brings about these cerebral upheavals?

As distinct from love, lust is brought on by surges of sex hormones, such as testosterone and estrogen. These induce an indiscriminate scramble for physical gratification. In the brain, the hypothalamus (controls hunger, thirst, and other primordial drives) and the amygdala (the locus of arousal) become active. Attraction transpires once a more-or-less appropriate object is found (with the right body language and speed and tone of voice) and results in a panoply of sleep and eating disorders.

A recent study in the University of Chicago demonstrated that testosterone levels shoot up by one third even during a casual chat with a female stranger. The stronger the hormonal reaction, the more marked the changes in behavior, concluded the authors. This loop may be part of a larger "mating response". In animals, testosterone provokes aggression and recklessness. The hormone's readings in married men and fathers are markedly lower than in single males still "playing the field".

Still, the long-term outcomes of being in love are lustful. Dopamine, heavily secreted while falling in love, triggers the production of testosterone and sexual attraction then kicks in.

Helen Fisher of Rutger University suggests a three-phased model of falling in love. Each stage involves a distinct set of chemicals. The BBC summed it up succinctly and sensationally: "Events occurring in the brain when we are in love have similarities with mental illness".

Moreover, we are attracted to people with the same genetic makeup and smell (pheromones) of our parents. Dr Martha McClintock of the University of Chicago studied feminine attraction to sweaty T-shirts formerly worn by males. The closer the smell resembled her father's, the more attracted and aroused the woman became. Falling in love is, therefore, an exercise in proxy incest and a vindication of Freud's much-maligned Oedipus and Electra complexes.

Writing in the February 2004 issue of the journal NeuroImage, Andreas Bartels of University College London's Wellcome Department of Imaging Neuroscience described identical reactions in the brains of young mothers looking at their babies and in the brains of people looking at their lovers.

"Both romantic and maternal love are highly rewarding experiences that are linked to the perpetuation of the species, and consequently have a closely linked biological function of crucial evolutionary importance" - he told Reuters.

This incestuous backdrop of love was further demonstrated by psychologist David Perrett of the University of St Andrews in Scotland. The subjects in his experiments preferred their own faces - in other words, the composite of their two parents - when computer-morphed into the opposite sex.


This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

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Body secretions play a major role in the onslaught of love. In results published in February 2007 in the Journal of Neuroscience, researchers at the University of California at Berkeley demonstrated convincingly that women who sniffed androstadienone, a signaling chemical found in male sweat, saliva, and semen, experienced higher levels of the hormone cortisol. This results in sexual arousal and improved mood. The effect lasted a whopping one hour.

Still, contrary to prevailing misconceptions, love is mostly about negative emotions. As Professor Arthur Aron from State University of New York at Stonybrook has shown, in the first few meetings, people misinterpret certain physical cues and feelings - notably fear and thrill - as (falling in) love. Thus, counterintuitively, anxious people - especially those with the "serotonin transporter" gene - are more sexually active (i.e., fall in love more often).

Obsessive thoughts regarding the Loved One and compulsive acts are also common. Perception is distorted as is cognition. "Love is blind" and the lover easily fails the reality test. Falling in love involves the enhanced secretion of b-Phenylethylamine (PEA, or the "love chemical") in the first 2 to 4 years of the relationship.

This natural drug creates an euphoric high and helps obscure the failings and shortcomings of the potential mate. Such oblivion - perceiving only the spouse's good sides while discarding her bad ones - is a pathology akin to the primitive psychological defense mechanism known as "splitting". Narcissists - patients suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder - also Idealize romantic or intimate partners. A similar cognitive-emotional impairment is common in many mental health conditions.

The activity of a host of neurotransmitters - such as Dopamine, Adrenaline (Norepinephrine), and Serotonin - is heightened (or in the case of Serotonin, lowered) in both paramours. Yet, such irregularities are also associated with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and depression.

It is telling that once attachment is formed and infatuation gives way to a more stable and less exuberant relationship, the levels of these substances return to normal. They are replaced by two hormones (endorphins) which usually play a part in social interactions (including bonding and sex): Oxytocin (the "cuddling chemical") and Vasopressin. Oxytocin facilitates bonding. It is released in the mother during breastfeeding, in the members of the couple when they spend time together - and when they sexually climax. Viagra (sildenafil) seems to facilitate its release, at least in rats.

Love, in all its phases and manifestations, is an addiction, probably to the various forms of internally secreted norepinephrine, such as the aforementioned amphetamine-like PEA. Love, in other words, is a form of substance abuse. The withdrawal of romantic love has serious mental health repercussions.

A study conducted by Dr. Kenneth Kendler, professor of psychiatry and director of the Virginia Institute for Psychiatric and Behavioral Genetics, and others, and published in the September 2002 issue of Archives of General Psychiatry, revealed that breakups often lead to depression and anxiety. Other, fMRI-based studies, demonstrated how the insular cortex, in charge of experiencing pain, became active when subjects viewed photos of former loved ones.

Still, love cannot be reduced to its biochemical and electrical components. Love is not tantamount to our bodily processes - rather, it is the way we experience them. Love is how we interpret these flows and ebbs of compounds using a higher-level language. In other words, love is pure poetry.


Also Read

The Inverted Narcissist

The Myth of Mental Illness

Sex or Gender

The Narcissist's Family

The Roots of Pedophilia

The Natural Roots of Sexuality

Parenting - The Irrational Vocation

Ethical Relativism and Absolute Taboos

The Offspring of Aeolus: On the Incest Taboo


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The author's name and a link to this Website must be incorporated in any reproduction of the material for any use and by any means.


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Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited

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Reply
 Message 11 of 12 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname_flyingfree03_Sent: 28/10/2008 7:09 p.m.
Hi Busy,
 
You're getting good responses here. I think the things your NH are saying are classic, textbook N phrases! (There must be an N thesaurus somewhere that they all use.)
 
My N's male friends confronted me over and over wanting to know what he had "done wrong," as if I had a list and he hadn't quite scored high enough. It was impossible to explain to them that there wasn't a list of wrongs he could somehow atone for; the problem was that the whole basis of the relationship was wrong.
 
It helped that a couselor told me the N and I had totally different goals for the marriage: I wanted a mutual relationship, and the N wanted to be in total control. (He was one of the few psychologists I went to who saw that.)
 
Within that framework, the N could do "good" things for the wrong reason, like to impress everyone else and remain in control. It's hard to explain to other people.
 
And the "love is a decision" thing. That church was full of people with joyless marriages who rationalized it that way.
 
Listen to your gut.
 
Flying

Reply
 Message 12 of 12 in Discussion 
From: Wilding24_7Sent: 29/10/2008 11:49 p.m.
Hi, Busyliving.  I agree with your therapist.  You seem normal and your husband seems like the wack job.  Your reality-checking shows it.  N's don't do that.  They've got reality all figured out, right up there with God. 
 
I felt the same way you do.  Wanting to be a good wife, I took the lion's share of responsibility for problems in our marriage.  I tried to 'fix' it even after I caught him cheating on me, ripping me off financially and lying without remorse.  Denial and malignant optimism hurt me almost as much as being abused.   If I'd stood my ground and given him an ultimatum when he first hurt my feelings (and tried to justify it!), I wouldn't have suffered nearly the emotional and financial harm I did.  But I mistakely assumed he was like me so I kept giving him the benefit of the doubt, as you're doing.  I did that for 33 years and am still suffering from PTSD as a result.
 
I agree with you.   I don't think we have a better way of knowing who loves us and who doesn't than by looking at how others treat us, and the effects it has on us.  As I told the npx, talk is cheap and that's all he did.  His actions spoke for him and showed he didn't love me or even our children.  I wasn't consciously aware of it, but he was suffocating my spirit.  I was starved for lack of love and respect. 
 
Looking back after I caught him cheating, I suddenly saw all the ways in which he'd ignored me and hurt my feelings.  He treated me like an object that existed to see to his physical and emotional comfort.  My only functions were to make him happy (ha!) by creating a seemingly normal life for him and reflecting his false, idealized self-image.  When I ceased functioning as he desired and refused to kiss his pompous know-it-all butt anymore, he quickly glommed onto an OW who did as he wanted despite knowing he was a liar and cheater.  He cheated with her for over 16 years and promised her the moon, but never asked me for a divorce.  He knew he had a good THING back home in the freezer.
 
His lying, emotional abuse and cheating were hurtful enough, and convinced me to leave him.  But once I realized he'd been plotting to use and deceive me the rest of my life, I knew he was incapable of loving me or anyone else.  He's utterly indifferent to others' needs, feelings, rights and boundaries.  He just wants to control people and use them to advance his own selfish agenda, regardless of the pain he causes them.  To me, that's the definition of evil. 
 
I was horrified to discover our marriage was a sham.  He married me to exploit me and look respectable, and never would've set me free.  He knew that if he'd told me the truth I would have divorced him then, with no regrets other than for marrying him in the first place.  But divorcing me, especially to marry a younger woman, would have made him look very bad and cost him child support and alimony.  Also, he didn't want me to be with another man, least of all one who loved and wanted me for myself.  He tried to make me feel old and unnattractive and undesirable so I wouldn't do to him what he was doing to me.    
 
He was cunning.  Other than socializing with a few couples he'd known for years and couldn't avoid, he subtly tried to keep me away from people our age who loved each other, warts and all, and had fun together.  He didn't want me to see how much better other wives were treated by their husbands, which I would've recognized sooner had we gotten out more often.  He also resented my single friends and relatives because their values and lifestyles were so alien to his shallow, paranoid, joyless existence.   He's 59 and has lived in the same area for almost 30 years, but has no real friends, just some people he interacts with, mostly co-workers. 
 
Clinging to others and exploiting them as means to our ends isn't loving them.   Being afraid they'll abandon us isn't love, nor is walking on eggshells around them, least of all when they're hurting us and don't care.  The npx's seeming kindnesses toward me and others were motivated only by his desire to enhance his fake good guy image.  I have no positive memories of him because he was a heartless fraud from start to finish.  I made all the efforts and hard sacrifices while he just went through the motions.  He insisted he wanted us to stay married but refused individual therapy, continued to emotionally and financially abuse me and lied through his teeth about his long affair with the OW.  People don't behave that way out of love. 
 
If your husband is like my ex he's got most people fooled, which leads you to think the problem is with you.  That's unlikely.  More likely you believed he shared your attitude toward life and love and marriage.  It's a logical assumption since normal people do see marriage as a partnership, not a power struggle.  If we didn't believe our partners were normal and would love, honor and cherish us, we surely wouldn't have married them and had children with them!  If I wanted to, I'd have no trouble replacing the ex because there are so many like him whose wives left them for the same reasons.  He's an attractive, friendly-seeming, well-off professional, but those are surface trappings.  He's not half the man he appears to be.  He has the emotional IQ of a spoilt, selfish five-year old.  
 
When we tolerate such behavior we might as well invite the psychos to abuse us.  N and P types go mad with power when we suffer their mistreatment in silence or with only mild protests.  They already see us as weak and dependent on their imaginary benevolence simply because we're in committed relationships with them.  They'll turn our kindness and compassion against us like weapons as it suits them, without a shred of remorse.  Most are eerily convincing liars and actors.  
 
As you wrote, love does consider the other person's feelings.   So when people we love hurt us and we're the only ones considering our feelings, it's time to leave! 

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