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I am just wondering why the devaluing? Is it because they no longer value you or is it more to do with power and control? Could it be because they feel threatened by you and feel an overwhelming need to put you in your place? Perhaps it is just a symptom of mysogynistic behaviour where they have really disliked us all along but have kept it hidden?? It is interesting that they usually come back for us even after the 'discard' which would indicate it is not 'really' what they want but just part of a sick process of inhibiting intimacy at any cost. Any one have any thoughts? |
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So true bumpy.. when they realise we are not buying into their engrandizing the d&d party gets started!! very well said. I also know what you mean about the give and take.. they have no understanding of what mutual or equal really means. |
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| | From:  KIMBO958 | Sent: 6/11/2008 10:54 a.m. |
TB Control. they have to always win. Their pathetic egos feel better when they are in control. Because that is all they have. It is all about them. And their needs. They believe they are the best and we are just toasters to them. I have stopped trying to figure them out. They are what they are.... No amount of rationalization from a normal person will ever figure this out.... They are mentally challenged and never to be fixed.... |
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Sometimes I think that because they are so childish, they can't make up their minds. There are, of course, many other reasons for the why's and wherefore's of things they do. But I think childishness might be one of the reasons they act as they do. Selfish little kids acting ugly on the playground. GN |
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Shaking the sense of being devalued... I haven't arrived there yet. However, I come from a different place than you Trixie. I have been able to recognize most of the falsity of the n's claims against me. Our fights were like carbon copies where he would bring up the same old worn out complaints (even if situations or I was totally different). I would disagree and explain why. Sound reasoning was useless with him...but it was INSTRUMENTAL FOR ME.
I needed to hear myself speak the words out loud in defiance against him...time and again. It helped me develop a strong sense of truth and rightness. I asssumed he understood sound reasoning and was intentionally trying to make things difficult (which may have been spot on).
Yet... I still can't shake the d-n-d!
For me...I have difficulty accepting he could just change his mind during half-time and not stick to the original game plan. It's really hard to switch your whole plan mid-game when you're under pressure and there's a good possibility you might lose. I have been thinking about this most of the day. What I have come up with it this...
When I was younger (and not really ready for a commitment) I was still open to the possibility of settling down under the perfect circumstances... Of which I would dictate. I decided in my mind I would give them 2 years of my time...since I had nothing better to do with my free time. After I had my fun I would evaluate where our relationship had gone whether it was worth a lifetime commitment. If my answer was NO... they are not marriage material... then I would simply switch OFF. Nothing they could say or do would make me change my mind.
I have ended EVERY SINGLE relationship in my life until I decided THIS IS THE ONE...which happened to be with the n....hmmmm.....
I am imagining the n could very well be in a similar mindset. In his reality (as messed up, psycho, and distorted as we know) he has just looked into his future and decided I don't fit into it. The difference is I was only dating but he married and had 2 kids with me over 7 years (which is a BIG difference).
The difference between you and I Trixie is only a matter of time. I realized much earlier in the relationshp that I was NOT what the n tried to LIE and define me as. I had done some MAJOR life changes and really WORKED on my spiritual life prior to meeting the N. I KNEW I was on the right path. I was a producer at the local broadcast news station and my life was full of friends and JOY.
I am not trying to say that I was perfect. I was so happy that I wasn't desperate to quickly fill it with a man. I was even on the verge of dumping my n unceremoniously when he took off his mask for a moment (testing the waters)...he back-tracked and pretended like he was just toying.
Even if you have some doubts about yourself... which is common and a good quality in moderation...there is NOTHING you could EVER have done BETTER for the n. Burn that in your brain. Come here again if you need us to tell you again. Heck...I keep needing the same encouragement. Even my step-father calls to give me a lift. It's what you need right now.
It has NOTHING to do with YOU...PERIOD.
They want what they want...and what they want is their own idealized and ever-changing wishes and personal satisfaction to be fulfilled. You can't go on thinking that you were not it because YOU WERE IT at one time....remember? The n's desires are as everchanging as the tide because as the tide depends on the moon...so the n depends on others perspective. There is no humanly possible way to keep up with the forces of nature.
As good as I thought I was...I continued to strive for better until I broke my back and the n broke my spirit. STOP right where you're at! STOP.
Love,
-Abi
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| | | From: samvak | Sent: 10/11/2008 4:46 p.m. |
Narcissists are afraid of intimacy and commitment. Click on these links are read the articles: It is an established fact that abuse �?verbal, psychological, emotional, physical, and sexual �?co-occurs with intimacy. Most reported offenses are between intimate partners and between parents and children. This defies common sense. Emotionally, it should be easier to batter, molest, assault, or humiliate a total stranger. It's as if intimacy CAUSES abuse, incubates and nurtures it. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Intimacy Retarding Paranoia Paranoia is use by the narcissist to ward off or reverse intimacy. The narcissist is threatened by intimacy because it reduces him to ordinariness by exposing his weaknesses and shortcomings and by causing him to act "normally". The narcissist also dreads the encounter with his deep buried emotions - hurt, envy, anger, aggression - likely to be foisted on him in an intimate relationship. The paranoid narrative legitimizes intimacy repelling behaviours such as keeping one's distance, secrecy, aloofness, reclusion, aggression, intrusion on privacy, lying, desultoriness, itinerancy, unpredictability, and idiosyncratic or eccentric reactions. Gradually, the narcissist succeeds to alienate and wear down all his friends, colleagues, well-wishers, and mates. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): The narcissist does his damnedest to avoid intimacy. He constantly lies about every aspect of his life: his self, his history, his vocations and avocations, and his emotions. This false data guarantee his informative lead, asymmetry, or "advantage" in his relationships. It fosters disintimisation. It casts a pall of cover up, separateness, mystery over the narcissist's affairs. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): The narcissist divides all women to saints and whores. He finds it difficult to have sex ("dirty", "forbidden", "punishable", "degrading") with feminine significant others (spouse, intimate girlfriend). To him, sex and intimacy are mutually exclusive rather than mutually expressive propositions. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): People with Personality Disorders (PDs) are very afraid of real, mature, intimacy. Intimacy is formed not only within a couple, but also in a workplace, in a neighborhood, with friends, while collaborating on a project. Intimacy is another word for emotional involvement, which is the result of interactions with others in constant and predictable (safe) propinquity. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Narcissists have no interest in emotional or even intellectual stimulation by significant others. Such feedback is perceived as a threat. Significant others in the narcissist's life have very clear roles: the accumulation and dispensation of past Primary Narcissistic Supply in order to regulate current Narcissistic Supply. Nothing less but definitely nothing more. Proximity and intimacy breed contempt. A process of devaluation is in full operation throughout the life of the relationship. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Inevitably, the sexuality of patients with personality disorders is thwarted and stunted. In the Paranoid Personality Disorder, sex is depersonalized and the sexual partner is dehumanized. The paranoid is besieged by persecutory delusions and equates intimacy with life-threatening vulnerability, a "breach in the defenses" as it were. the paranoid uses sex to reassure himself that he is still in control and to quell is anxiety. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Question: What is the mechanism behind the cycles of over-valuation (idealization) and devaluation in the narcissist's life? Answer: Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Thus, paradoxically, the worst his anguish and unhappiness, the more relieved and elated such an abuser feels! He is "liberated" and "unshackled" by his own self-initiated abandonment, he insists. He never really wanted this commitment, he tells any willing (or buttonholed) listener �?and anyhow, the relationship was doomed from the beginning by the egregious excesses and exploits of his wife (or partner or friend or boss). Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Thus, on the one hand, the narcissist feels that his freedom depends upon re-enacting these early experiences. On the other hand, he is terrified by this prospect. Realizing that he is doomed to go through the same traumas over and over again, the narcissist distances himself by using his aggression to alienate, to humiliate and in general, to be emotionally absent. This behavior brings about the very consequence that the narcissist so fears - abandonment. But, this way, at least, the narcissist is able to tell himself (and others) that HE was the one who fostered the separation, that it was fully his choice and that he was not surprised. The truth is that, governed by his internal demons, the narcissist has no real choice. The dismal future of his relationships is preordained. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): In his quest to find new sources, he again embarks on ego-mending bouts of sex, followed by the selection of a spouse or a mate (a Secondary Narcissistic Supply Source). Then the cycle re-commence: a sharp drop in sexual activity, emotional absence and cruel detachment leading to abandonment. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): |
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I really don't like the use of the term "devalue" because it implies there was once value.
They never did see us as in valuable terms, not as viable humans or "significant' others.
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Hi Trixie, You wrote: I am just wondering why the devaluing? I'd really like to know this too! I don't believe the answer is in the thread. Maybe it is, I don't know. Does anyone have anything more to add? It seems like it's just in them to idealize then devalue. I'd like a better explanation for that. Here are what some people mention in the thread: 1. No longer value you? Power and control? They feel threatened? Are mysogynistic and disliked us all along?
2. They devalue because they feel they are losing control. Keep people in their place by making them feel worthless. They hate boundaries.
3. It's all about control.
4. I think it's simple, they devalue us to make them feel better. It boils down to control.
5. If they allow us to feel as important as them, they are not special. They have to devalue us so they can feel superior to us.
6. It's all part of the narcissistic pattern.
7. I think they D & D because they feel they are going to lose it anyway.
8. The pathological N devalues and discards and the pathological co-dependent takes him back.
12. Control. they have to always win. Their pathetic egos feel better when they are in control. Because that is all they have. It is all about them. And their needs.
13. Sometimes I think that because they are so childish, they can't make up their minds.
14. I am imagining the n could very well be in a similar mindset. In his reality (as messed up, psycho, and distorted as we know) he has just looked into his future and decided I don't fit into it. They want what they want...and what they want is their own idealized and ever-changing wishes and personal satisfaction to be fulfilled.
15. Narcissists are afraid of intimacy and commitment.
16. I really don't like the use of the term "devalue" because it implies there was once value. They never did see us as in valuable terms, not as viable humans or "significant' others. The strongest argument here seems that they need to feel better, important, special, and superior to us, so they put us down -- devalue us. Sure they fear intimacy, but wouldn't that mean they'd run away from us -- what's the point of the devalue there? That they do it to control us, that's just not persuasive to me. I don't see the specific connection between control and devaluing. Why would a desire to control specifically lead to devaluing. I'm afraid I'm just not seeing it. I believe there's a specific reason or quality to the devalue that I'm missing. It almost seems to relate to the idealization in the first place. As if they only have two modes -- idealization or devaluation. Primitive relationship with objects and people. People mirror them and so they're seen as good, or they don't, and they're seen as bad. I dunno. A limited emotional repertoire. Any more help would be appreciated. Sincerely, Paul
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l reckon they devalue us...AS WE ARE BETTER THAN THEM....!!!!!and they know it.....
SIMPLE!!! |
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Hi Paul.. I completely understand your frustration with this. Selly could be onto something here.. perhaps it is as simple as a feeling of jealousy toward us? a method of keeping the upper hand as an 'emotional inferior'. Or it could be a projection of them rejecting their own false self, once we have identified with them as a partner. Or it could just be plain old spite, a nasty game they play at our expense? If they can't 'do' relationships they may be testing our endurance to tolerate them the way they are? I hate to think. Thanks for listing the responses. It all helps.. Trixie. |
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OR !! .. the true/false selves fighting for top position.. (just a theory).. as in "true self told you that I love you.. well false self is here to tell you that I don't" .. maybe it's something like that? x |
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i am confused on the topic too. but i must agree i think that we get stronger when we see them for who they are esp after each N dip. that is why after each dip they D&D us worse than the first time.................i once told my XN that he made me stronger cause i endured all this pain he caused me and i survived it----i grew up & made my life better and NOW i am able to see things and people for what they are---frauds...yes i am still needing help in fighting my way out of this N thing---but i will get there...nothing worth having is easily gotten...FREEDOM from the N!
we are there worse nightmare----------------someone they want to be............................... |
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Hi Trixie, Why do Ns devalue? To understand it you have to go back to the beginnning of their lives-when they were infants. If you will read about this time in a person's life, you will find there is a whole topic called "object relations". This has to do with how the infant begins to experience others (usually mothers) as they learn they are not the only entities in the world. There's a whole lot of gobbeldy gook and stuff about envy and breasts and all that Freudian thing but the upshot is that the narcissist solves the problem of envy by becoming the "only object." Instead of "cathecting" to others or attaching their energy to others, they attach to themselves. There are a whole bunch of reasons too why that happens-like neglect or rejection-maybe even some are prone to it already. No one really knows. So, their wiring is off. They are literally "stuck on themselves." As Dr. Sam points out-only the narcissist can be the "good object." They are committed to this outlook. You could say that narcissists are solipsistic-only they exist. All others are merely things, devices, resources and sources. Well, obviously, this is not true. I mean-narcissists are not the only "objects" in the world. The rest of us are just as real as they are and we are equally sovereign entities, created by the good Lord Himself. The narcissist however has to maintain their fiction-their feeling of specialness, being the only one. They can't attach, they can't love, they can't give to another-let's just say it REALLY hurts their egos and they will not do it. Remember that t.v. program-the Immortals-there could "be only ONE". Kind of like narcissists. Or think Wicked Stepmother from Snow White-they have to be the "fairest in all the land." When narcissists are first with another person,they are not really experiencing the other person's "otherness." What they have done is created a kind of "folie a deux"-a madness for two. When that wears off and they begin to experience the other as a real person-that is when they have to devalue them and tear them down. Their egos will tolerate no competition. You know-they are such pains in the rear-big wastes of time, that's what they are. |
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Thanks Aphrodite, I think I know what your saying.. my xnbf kept saying things like 'now that I have met you I wonder what the universe is trying to tell me'.. YUK! .. looking back now I can't believe I didn't puke on the spot.. how depersonalising. It really was all about him. I was such a good girlfriend as I was still in recovery from a real live, genuine article N and having PSTD I had very little expectations on the relationship, only wanting a bit of companionship on the weekends, someone to go to the movies with etc. It wasnt until we hit a fork in the road (metophorically speaking) and I had a genuine complaint about his behaviour that he could no longer 'participate' in the relationship. I basically had, to quote someone else here 'be a dead person' or not be at all, no otherness was permitted. It was like a madness for two, and I was mad for tolerating it for as long as I did. You must die to yourself to co-exist in their lives. How frightening. I'm so cranky with myself for humouring another (albeit style) N. |
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Trixie, When I received an e-mail from someone stating that "B cheats on you", my hopefully soon to be xnh's response when I showed it to him was, "someone wants to hurt me"...I was so confused by his response. I asked, "they want to hurt you so they send an e-mail to me?" I guess I was looking for an "I'm so sorry that someone would send this to you and try to hurt you in this way; I have no idea why someone would do this to you because there is no truth to that statement." Sick, just plain old sick!!! As I move further and further out of his web, I see things so much more clearly. While it still pains me greatly at times for the loss of what I thought could have been especially for my teenage children, I am feeling so much more disconnected to his drama and better about everything else in my life. It has taken me almost 2 years to get to this place, but it is heaven compared to where I was... |
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| | | From: samvak | Sent: 17/11/2008 5:23 p.m. |
Narcissists are afraid of intimacy and commitment. Click on these links are read the articles: It is an established fact that abuse �?verbal, psychological, emotional, physical, and sexual �?co-occurs with intimacy. Most reported offenses are between intimate partners and between parents and children. This defies common sense. Emotionally, it should be easier to batter, molest, assault, or humiliate a total stranger. It's as if intimacy CAUSES abuse, incubates and nurtures it. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Intimacy Retarding Paranoia Paranoia is use by the narcissist to ward off or reverse intimacy. The narcissist is threatened by intimacy because it reduces him to ordinariness by exposing his weaknesses and shortcomings and by causing him to act "normally". The narcissist also dreads the encounter with his deep buried emotions - hurt, envy, anger, aggression - likely to be foisted on him in an intimate relationship. The paranoid narrative legitimizes intimacy repelling behaviours such as keeping one's distance, secrecy, aloofness, reclusion, aggression, intrusion on privacy, lying, desultoriness, itinerancy, unpredictability, and idiosyncratic or eccentric reactions. Gradually, the narcissist succeeds to alienate and wear down all his friends, colleagues, well-wishers, and mates. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): The narcissist does his damnedest to avoid intimacy. He constantly lies about every aspect of his life: his self, his history, his vocations and avocations, and his emotions. This false data guarantee his informative lead, asymmetry, or "advantage" in his relationships. It fosters disintimisation. It casts a pall of cover up, separateness, mystery over the narcissist's affairs. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): The narcissist divides all women to saints and whores. He finds it difficult to have sex ("dirty", "forbidden", "punishable", "degrading") with feminine significant others (spouse, intimate girlfriend). To him, sex and intimacy are mutually exclusive rather than mutually expressive propositions. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): People with Personality Disorders (PDs) are very afraid of real, mature, intimacy. Intimacy is formed not only within a couple, but also in a workplace, in a neighborhood, with friends, while collaborating on a project. Intimacy is another word for emotional involvement, which is the result of interactions with others in constant and predictable (safe) propinquity. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Narcissists have no interest in emotional or even intellectual stimulation by significant others. Such feedback is perceived as a threat. Significant others in the narcissist's life have very clear roles: the accumulation and dispensation of past Primary Narcissistic Supply in order to regulate current Narcissistic Supply. Nothing less but definitely nothing more. Proximity and intimacy breed contempt. A process of devaluation is in full operation throughout the life of the relationship. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Inevitably, the sexuality of patients with personality disorders is thwarted and stunted. In the Paranoid Personality Disorder, sex is depersonalized and the sexual partner is dehumanized. The paranoid is besieged by persecutory delusions and equates intimacy with life-threatening vulnerability, a "breach in the defenses" as it were. the paranoid uses sex to reassure himself that he is still in control and to quell is anxiety. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Question: What is the mechanism behind the cycles of over-valuation (idealization) and devaluation in the narcissist's life? Answer: Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Thus, paradoxically, the worst his anguish and unhappiness, the more relieved and elated such an abuser feels! He is "liberated" and "unshackled" by his own self-initiated abandonment, he insists. He never really wanted this commitment, he tells any willing (or buttonholed) listener �?and anyhow, the relationship was doomed from the beginning by the egregious excesses and exploits of his wife (or partner or friend or boss). Continue to read this article here (click on this link): Thus, on the one hand, the narcissist feels that his freedom depends upon re-enacting these early experiences. On the other hand, he is terrified by this prospect. Realizing that he is doomed to go through the same traumas over and over again, the narcissist distances himself by using his aggression to alienate, to humiliate and in general, to be emotionally absent. This behavior brings about the very consequence that the narcissist so fears - abandonment. But, this way, at least, the narcissist is able to tell himself (and others) that HE was the one who fostered the separation, that it was fully his choice and that he was not surprised. The truth is that, governed by his internal demons, the narcissist has no real choice. The dismal future of his relationships is preordained. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): In his quest to find new sources, he again embarks on ego-mending bouts of sex, followed by the selection of a spouse or a mate (a Secondary Narcissistic Supply Source). Then the cycle re-commence: a sharp drop in sexual activity, emotional absence and cruel detachment leading to abandonment. Continue to read this article here (click on this link): |
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