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| | From:  whitejade0 (Original Message) | Sent: 11/11/2008 5:07 a.m. |
I am trying to figure out why permanent NC is so hard for some of us. I was reading about how the fear of abandonment makes codependent people endure abuse (such as metted out by an N or P) but they still hold on for dear life anyway. Their fear of rejection or abandonment is that great. I think I have strong codependent tendencies myself and I would appreciate any insight into this. I was wondering if a codep person had a back-up BF/GF or husband, would it help to take away some of their fear of abandonment? Would more than one back up person help even more? Or is the codep person dependent on ONE person alone so that having around other available people if the N D&Ded them would not matter anyway? |
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| Yes I guess it is... I have my lovely,adorable 19 year old son, I have my sister who I love dearly and who's house is my house, I have my very, very close friends...... but I am still missing that special person now J has gone and I feel lost and cast adrift. Not so bad as in the past...but that feeling exists. As for a man though.....I can only love one at a time....my love for J (my gay ex) I cannot see ending because I have so much respect for him and he has given me so much. I will measure all men by him and I feel they will all come up wanting. |
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| | | Sent: 11/11/2008 8:47 p.m. |
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| | | Sent: 11/11/2008 8:53 p.m. |
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| | | Sent: 11/11/2008 8:59 p.m. |
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| | | From: Gemma108 | Sent: 11/11/2008 10:04 p.m. |
Hi. My abandonment issues are ENORMOUS and had a lot to do with how excruciating d &d was for me. I have found Sue Anderson’s book on abandonment extremely helpful and comforting. Give it a look. And yes �?I was looking for my mother...and n was looking for her father AND mother! |
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Just one more thing about abandonment issues - I have them hugely as well, no surprise there. But the minute the N recognized that I did, that is when he started the cycle of abuse against me. I could never figure that out, why it was so amusing and fun to either "tease" me about my feelings of abandonment or to push me into an anxiety attack about those same feelings. And both D&D's were designed to play on my feelings of abandonment, in their presentation to me by the N. Now I want to bury them so no one ever treats them as ridiculous or disdainful again. But I know I have to work them out, and not either wear them on my sleeve OR bury them. My therapist says that abandonment can be felt back as far as the womb -- there is research into hormonal or other bodily symptoms of detachment from the baby in her womb by the mother - since my mother told me that she would have aborted me if she could have, and did in fact try, but fail at it...once I was able to understand what "abortion" meant, I've no doubt I may have a VERY deep well of abandonment issues going on! That is so sad...I know I wanted and love BOTH my kids and I say it every day now and often told them that while I carried them...I hope no one else has to experience this kind of detachment, but I am sure many, many of us did. That's why we are such easy targets for Ns. |
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I asked myself a similar question tonight at my al anon meeting. Can there exist a codependant drug addict? Maybe what we are seeing similar in all these issues is the aspect of addiction?
drug adict to drugs
alcoholic to alcoholic
sexaholic to sex
narcissist to narcissistic supply
codepedant to emotional intensity/pseudo love
Anyway, the overlap is scarey. I guess what makes the N an N is by fulfilling the specific number of required criteria. Someone asked ..if keeping two boyfriends for fear or abandonment would make you a narcissist ? I would think... not unless you fullfil enough other required criteria for diagnosis. Do i think 2 timing is a narcissitic trait? In my opinion...yes I personally do, but only because i think any trait that betrays or decives another for ones own selfish benefit borders close to if not a narcissistic behavior, but that alone doesnt make one a narcissist. You would need the number of reqired criteria for a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. We all have exhibited narcissisic behaviors at one time or another. Just my thoughts on this topic as it was on my mind as well. I love this thread, more thoughts would be great
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Since codependents are chasing after a parent (or similar figure) who abandoned us, wouldn't a narcissist also be chasing after the same thing, since they have abandonment issues as well? |
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Good question... Im not sure how to answer that because i dont have the answer myself. Im in the process of trying to examine the overlap between npd and co-dependency. Does the diferences lay in intention, motivation, level of awareness. If you look at that model of that the karpman drama triangle for example.. well even just reading about it horrified me, I felt awful thinking and wondering... is this me? I was sadened for days thinking that all this time i thought i was motivated to "fix" out of the goodness of my heart, I was actually motivated by a dsyfunctional need.I felt like an awful person. An n who displayed similar nasty traits wouldnt care if they were a bad person or not and the motivation is likely very different.
So maybe the parent seeking motivation is different as well. Codeps intention may be to seek to fix the parent they are chasing and do unfortunatly do damage in the process where N's seek to punish and do damage via the punishments? Codeps believe they are doing good ( even though they arent) where N's know they are manipulating, and doing purposeful damage |
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It's just my opinion, but maybe the best approach to the problem would be to identify our own co-dependent issues and work on them. It's nice that we are considerate of the n's issues, but since the n is a part of the past, and because we know we cannot help the n, it's probably best to focus on ourselves. Two books I have read on the subject are written by Melodie Beatty: Co-Dependent No More and Beyond Co-Dependence. There is help to be had in Sam's book as well. When we're on an airplane and the flight attendant is issuing the emergency instructions, we're instructed to fit the oxygen mask over our own mouth before trying to assist a child or anyone else. That instruction should be remembered in all things. First off, you can't help the n. Second, if you could, you'd need to be in the best shape you could be in. I think that time spent pondering the n's co-dependency issues would be better spent pondering, learning about, and correcting our own co-dependency issues. GN |
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Speaking of flight attendants, I read a book around 20 years ago called The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling by Arlie Hochschild. He mentions how airline recruiters specifically hire women who anticipate the needs of others before their own needs- which gives them great pride and a sense of worth,. I think this the gist of codependent behavior; to feel needed by presenting oneself in the name of good service.
The best flight attendants are rewarded by how they put their own needs last, such as serving drinks to the rest of us when they are parched and wish they could have a sip of coke themselves- but, alas, seeing a flight attendant open up a can of coke and drink it before a passenger is verboten. Hence, the best in-flight employee is brainwashed into thinking that they don’t deserve to drink- that is, until all 400 passengers get a drink first. And they are required to keep a smile about it�?this is the culture that was fostered in the airline industry- that is, 20 years ago when this book came out.
For any codependent that is dealing with a N, you will be constantly putting your own needs last in order to make the relationship work. It’s a managed heart, a controlled way of saying to a N, I want you to respect me and I will do anything to make the relationship work. I will stuff myself into the smallest space possible so you have more room. And the N, lies and says, thank you, I respect you. When you find out he’s lying, it devastates and demoralizes.
What the N really should be saying is: I cannot respect you, because I do not respect myself.
Normal people will say- good luck with that and good bye. The codependent says, I want you to respect me and I will do anything to make the relationship work. I will stuff myself into the smallest space possible so you have more room and when you show me that you don’t care, I will scream, cry, cajole, beg, plead, etc. until you lie to me again and say, thank you, I respect you. But the N cannot respect anyone, let alone themselves and the cycle starts all over again.
They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Sometimes we get involved with the wrong people because they trigger hopeless feelings that we are getting nowhere in life. If you find yourself saying, It's the same thing over and over again- why me? It's always a good place to start to dig and wonder, hey, why me?. Being dependent on people is not a bad thing- everyone needs to belong. Being dependent on liars however, is not your fault unless you think it is your fault... and N's can twist your thinking very quickly because your FOO set you up to be a people pleasing child.
N's have a pathological envy while codependents have a pathological doubt. As long as you are triggered by doubts that you are the cause of the problem, or you need to try harder, or you didn't give it enough time or effort, the N will continue to torture you... N's do not suffer from pathological doubts, they need you for that. It's a set up that's bound to work on a disturbing level and I guarantee that the person with envy will destroy the person with doubt. That's why it's important to recognize which pathology you have- doubt or envy?
Easy enough when you start to see it in other people. Try it and you'll see. And those flight attendants? The airline wants them to be in doubt; whether its their weight or their age, or their job security or whether or not they can call in sick. Doubt keeps people in line... and afraid.
N's count on your doubt. Don't let them see it. Recognize it the next time you doubt yourself... |
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| | | From: OzGirl57 | Sent: 13/11/2008 12:18 p.m. |
<WBR>Thank you, Alliance!
This is me.....the codefendant to a "t"......ugh, I have major work to do on me!
-----Original Message-----
From: NARCISSISTIC_PERSONALITY_DISORDER <[email protected]>
To: NARCISSISTIC_PERSONALITY_DISORDER <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 5:18 am
Subject: Re: Codependent and the Narcissist
-----------------------------------------------------------
New Message on NARCISSISTIC_PERSONALITY_DISORDER
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: alliance2myself
Message 19 in Discussion
Speaking of flight attendants, I read a book around 20 years ago called The
Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling by Arlie Hochschild. He
mentions how airline recruiters specifically hire women who anticipate the needs
of others before their own needs- which gives them great pride and a sense of
worth,. I think this the gist of codependent behavior; to feel needed by
presenting oneself in the name of good service.
The best flight attendants are rewarded by how they put their own needs last,
such as serving drinks to the rest of us when they are parched and wish they
could have a sip of coke themselves- but, alas, seeing a flight attendant open
up a can of coke=2
0and drink it before a passenger is verboten. Hence, the best
in-flight employee is brainwashed into thinking that they dont deserve to
drink- that is, until all 400 passengers get a drink first. And they are
required to keep a smile about it this is the culture that was fostered in the
airline industry- that is, 20 years ago when this book came out.
For any codependent that is dealing with a N, you will be constantly putting
your own needs last in order to make the relationship work. Its a managed
heart, a controlled way of saying to a N, I want you to respect me and I will do
anything to make the relationship work. I will stuff myself into the smallest
space possible so you have more room. And the N, lies and says, thank you, I
respect you. When you find out hes lying, it devastates and demoralizes.
What the N really should be saying is: I cannot respect you, because I do not
respect myself.
Normal people will say- good luck with that and good bye. The codependent says,
I want you to respect me and I will do anything to make the relationship work.
I will stuff myself into the smallest space possible so you have more room and
when you show me that you dont care, I will scream, cry, cajole, beg, plead,
etc. until you lie to me again and say, thank you, I respect you. But the N
cannot respect anyone, let alone themselves and the cycle st
arts all over again.
They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
again and expecting a different result.
Sometimes we get involved with the wrong people because they trigger hopeless
feelings that we are getting nowhere in life. If you find yourself saying, It's
the same thing over and over again- why me? It's always a good place to start
to dig and wonder, hey, why me?. Being dependent on people is not a bad thing-
everyone needs to belong. Being dependent on liars however, is not your fault
unless you think it is your fault... and N's can twist your thinking very
quickly because your FOO set you up to be a people pleasing child.
N's have a pathological envy while codependents have a pathological doubt. As
long as you are triggered by doubts that you are the cause of the problem, or
you need to try harder, or you didn't give it enough time or effort, the N will
continue to torture you... N's do not suffer from pathological doubts, they need
you for that. It's a set up that's bound to work on a disturbing level and I
guarantee that the person with envy will destroy the person with doubt. That's
why it's important to recognize which pathology you have- doubt or envy?
Easy enough when you start to see it in other people. Try it and you'll see.
And those flight attendants? The airline wants them to be in doubt; whether its
their wei
ght or their age, or their job security or whether or not they can call
in sick. Doubt keeps people in line... and afraid.
N's count on your doubt. Don't let them see it. Recognize it the next time you
doubt yourself...
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"I think that time spent pondering the n's co-dependency issues would be better spent pondering, learning about, and correcting our own co-dependency issues". How else to examine ones own, but by looking in the reflection of everything we hate about an N, and searching for it within ourselves? I couldnt care less about N and his issues, but I do care to understand my own and sometimes what we hate in someone is what we may be guilty of ourselves. |
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| | | From: Kitcat08 | Sent: 14/11/2008 6:27 p.m. |
Wome say that 99% of the population is condependent to a degree. It's those degrees that cause pain that make us questions our dependence on others. Ofcourse they can be N and be codependent. Wouldn't just being N make one codependent in that they need the supply of someone else. They can't exist alone if they need supply, thus, dependency on another to give them supply. Addicts and Alanons (codependents) are the opposite sides of the same coin. One friend in program says that if you scratch an Alcolholic/Addict he would bleed Codependency. As humans we want to be in relationship. Within that relations there are degrees of depenacies. Of course the goal is to be "interdependent". With "two wholes coming together to function as a team", rather than codependent as in "two people with holes in their souls coming together to be a whole" . A recovery program can help people get pointed in the right direction if they are willing to do the "work" |
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Can Ns be codependent? I guess what seems contradictory to me is that codependent fear abandonment so they cling desperately and Ns fear abandonment so they discard to be the ones to abandon. To me that seems mutually exclusive behavior. |
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