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General : codependants are addicted to what?
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Reply
 Message 1 of 9 in Discussion 
From: N magnetgirl  (Original Message)Sent: 12/11/2008 4:54 a.m.
if you look at the literature in

alcoholics anonymous- it says to admit powerlessness over alcohol
narcotics anonymous- it say to admit powerlessness over drugs
al anon-, to admit powerless over the alcoholic
codependants anonymous -it says to admit powerlessness over people

alcoholics are addicted to alcohol
drug addicts are addicted to drugs
al anon members.. are they addicted to addicts? I think so In my opinion anyway.
But.. codependants.... to what do we become addicted to, and is it technically an "addiction"???
Are codepenants addicted to.... intensity?
If so, its no wonder we are attracted to the narcissist. The way an N makes you feel. Always intense
So, is a codependant just another form of " addict " yes or no?

drugs make a high,alcohol makes a high and thats what people become addicted to ( the feeling from the substance)
So what about the high attached with intensity? Maybe its not a tangible substance but it still produces the same effects. Is it not just another way to stimulate feel good chemicals the same way alcohol and drugs do? Do we feel like we are " jonesing" when the N withdraws his/her love?

So my question, agree or disagree, codependants are addicted to something..( a feeling) <-- maybe intensity, or that "psuedo in love intensity feeling". Are we addicts, comparable to a drug or alcohol addict... just a different addiction? y or no, why or why not?

thanks






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Reply
 Message 2 of 9 in Discussion 
From: N magnetgirlSent: 12/11/2008 6:30 a.m.
from wikipedia

addiction - "the term addiction is used to describe a recurring compulsion by an individual to engage in some specific activity, despite harmful consequences to the individual's health, mental state or social life.


Reply
 Message 3 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameKitcat08Sent: 12/11/2008 9:25 p.m.
Codependents are addicted to relationships.
 
CO-dependent----meaning they need another person to feel complete.

Reply
 Message 4 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameKitcat08Sent: 12/11/2008 9:29 p.m.
Many Alanon's believe that we are addicted to the addict.....to relationship.  When the relationship is good, we are high, when it's not good, we are depressed.    We get addicted to the drama and chaos.  The adrenaline of fighitng to change things.  The merry-go-round of emotion.
 
And you can see it played out here, by those who have to sit on their hands to have NC.   
 
 

Reply
 Message 5 of 9 in Discussion 
From: N magnetgirlSent: 13/11/2008 7:55 a.m.
I guess the reason why Im thinking about this so much is because I'm in that stage with al anon where Im tring to understand that drug/alcohol addiction is an illness. Im trying to understand the aspect of impulse and obsesion. The only way Ive been able to put it into perspective is by examining my own addictions and trying to determine if they are compulsions that are comparable to those of the alcoholic or drug addict.
Heres what it came down to. I know that dating man with red flags is dangerous, but i also know that im atracted to that because there is the element of intense "feel good high" I know that it will inevitably cause me pain, yet repeatedly ive done it over my entire life. I say never again, but then do it again. To me that is an illness, a compulsion, because if I consiously know, yet do it anyway... well then there is a problem.
So i figure that this is what its like for an alcoholic... its the feel good high vs the painful aftermath. I guess thats why they say addicts dont quit until they hit rock bottem .. meaning the destructive consequences of the drinking finally outweigh the enjoyable high/numbing of the habit.
So could the idea of addictive personality be caused by a defect in emotional memory? For some reaon it seems that those with addictive personalities cannot attach the painful consequences to the temporarily pleasurable stimuli. For some reason addicts ( of all kinds ) need to be hit harder with consequence then an average person. Co-deps need to be traumatized before they stop dating N's, is no different then the drug addict who needs to find himself homeless, abandoned, and near dying before he decides that this is enough.
So, today im going to conclude that i think I finally understand addiction, be it alcohol, drugs, emotional intensity/people.. whatever. I do think that it is an illness, and just like an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, I believe a codep may always be a co-dep. Im probably always going to be attracted to N's. Im just going to have to learn that N = pain and suffering, and it is not worth the temporary feel good high... and just stop myself. Just like an alcoholic cannot take even 1 drink, I cannot engage in any way even 1 N type personality. I have to refrain from being drawn into intensity and drama. It seems that Ive hit my codep rock bottem i guess... finally... I hope this is the beginning of the end

Reply
 Message 6 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamenatman21Sent: 13/11/2008 10:59 p.m.
I agree with kitcat....we are/were addicted to relationship.
 
I believe our emotions and feelings are tied to physical sensations. Unpleasent emotions or issues we are avoiding bring up physical discomfort or intense sensation.
So we choose a physical sensation or emotional activity that overwhelms the sensation we are avoiding. It could be heroin, nicotine/smoking, sexual addiction, porn addiction(the only 3 people I know of with porn addiction were very serious Christians with strong church involvement...go figure!), workoholic, drugs, and relationship. A therapist once said to me about my XN, "Her drug of choice is relationship."
 
The thought of being alone and feeling our feelings scares us too much. We avoid red flags, rush into relationships, and stay well beyond when anyone with high self-esteem would.
 
How I quit smoking is a very revealing tale. I had been quiting for 20 years on and off. The day I graduated from school I was so happy. I responded by driving 25 miles into town to buy cigarettes(that is not a typo). As I sat and smoked I rehashed my responses and thought about how smoking is a form of "smoke screen." What was I hiding from?
 
My answer scared me. I didn't want to be with and feel my feelings...even my happy ones of graduating. I couldn't be with my own inner emotions I avoided them and masked them over.
 
Outloud at that time, I vowed to "feel my own feelings"....not to hide and avoid whatever seemed too uncomfortable to experience. Holy miracles.  I never had another cigarette. It has been 10 years of no smoking.
 
 
Just the realization of the emotional purpose behind smoking and vowing to change was all I needed to move on. Granted I still have other fall backs. I did live with an N for 8 years since then, but it was very revealing to me the basis of addiction. It is an avoidance technique. I quit smoking and moved into an intense dsyfunctional relationship.
 
I am a recovering co-dependent. I have not dated for 9 months and more comfortable to be in my own skin all the time. Thank God my last relationship was only 11 months long before I "got" it. The workshops are getting shorter.
 
I vow that my next relationship will be a real relationship, no more just for the sex and distraction. Addiction only diminishes us. We truly cannot avoid what we resist.
It only intensifies.
 

Reply
 Message 7 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamesweetcaroline703Sent: 14/11/2008 12:13 a.m.
Years ago, I asked my therapist what being 'codependant" meant. His reply?
'codependant means that when you get up in the morning, you ask your partner how WE are feeling today!!!

Reply
 Message 8 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamebumpy_rider2Sent: 14/11/2008 12:28 a.m.
Co-dependency became popular in the 70's to explain why people stayed in relationships with alcoholics. Flashing forward to present day, it's used to label anyone who is in a relationship with an unhealthy person.

Co-dependent, technically, means those that seek out relationships with troubled people because of their need to help, feel needed, be the "well one" in the relationship because with it comes a certain degree of control.

Addiction is something that controls you, despite your better judgment. They found in alcoholics, that the physiological response to alcohol could be seen in the brain. Just the way we are wired? What; the addiction is, drugs, alcohol, sex, relationships, that change is probably the same.

It sounds to me like you're doing all the right things to try to turn your relationship preferences around. I admire that.

Reply
 Message 9 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 17/11/2008 5:01 p.m.

Codependents

People who depend on other people for their emotional gratification and the performance of Ego or daily functions. They are needy, demanding, and submissive. They fear abandonment, cling and display immature behaviours in their effort to maintain the "relationship" with their companion or mate upon whom they depend. No matter what abuse is inflicted upon them �?they remain in the relationship. By eagerly becoming victims, codependents seek to control their abusers.

See also a description of the Dependent Personality Disorder  - or its definition in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV-TR, 2000).

Inverted Narcissist

Also called "covert narcissist", this is a co-dependent who depends exclusively on narcissists (narcissist-co-dependent). If you are living with a narcissist, have a relationship with one, if you are married to one, if you are working with a narcissist, etc. �?it does NOT mean that you are an inverted narcissist.

To "qualify" as an inverted narcissist, you must CRAVE to be in a relationship with a narcissist, regardless of any abuse inflicted on you by him/her. You must ACTIVELY seek relationships with narcissists and ONLY with narcissists, no matter what your (bitter and traumatic) past experience has been. You must feel EMPTY and UNHAPPY in relationships with ANY OTHER kind of person. Only then, and if you satisfy the other diagnostic criteria of a Dependent Personality Disorder, can you be safely labelled an "inverted narcissist".

Counterdependents

Most "classical" (overt) narcissists are counterdependent. Their emotions and needs are buried under "scar tissue" which had formed, coalesced, and hardened during years of one form of abuse or another. Grandiosity, a sense of entitlement, a lack of empathy, and overweening haughtiness usually hide gnawing insecurity and a fluctuating sense of self-worth.

Counterdependents are contumacious (reject and despise authority), fiercely independent, controlling, self-centered, and aggressive. They fear intimacy and are locked into cycles of hesitant approach followed by avoidance of commitment. They are "lone wolves" and bad team players.

Counterdependence is a reaction formation. The counterdependent dreads his own weaknesses. He seeks to overcome them by projecting an image of omnipotence, omniscience, success, self-sufficiency, and superiority.

Introduction

Codependence is an important and integral part of narcissism. Narcissists are either counterdependent or codependent (Inverted).

The DSM-IV-TR uses 9 criteria to define the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). It is sufficient to show signs of 5 of them to be diagnosed as a narcissist. Thus, theoretically, it is possible to have NPD without being grandiose.

Many researchers (Alexander Lowen, Jeffrey Satinover, Theodore Millon and others) suggested a "taxonomy" of pathological narcissism. They divided narcissists to sub-groups (very much as I did with my somatic versus cerebral narcissist dichotomy).

Lowen, for instance, talks about the "phallic" narcissist versus others. Satinover and Millon make a very important distinction between narcissists who were raised by "classically" abusive parents �?and those who were raised by doting and smothering or domineering mothers.

Glenn O. Gabbard in "Psychodynamic Psychiatry in Clinical Practice" [The DSM-IV-TR Edition. Comments on Cluster B Personality Disorders �?Narcissistic. American Psychiatric Press, Inc., 2000] we find this:

"…what definitive criteria can be used to differentiate healthy from pathological narcissism? The time honoured criteria of psychological health �?to love and to work �?are only partly useful in answering this question."

"An individual's work history may provide little help in making the distinction. Highly disturbed narcissistic individuals may find extraordinary success in certain professions, such as big business, the arts, politics, the entertainment industry, athletics and televangelism field. In some cases, however, narcissistic pathology may be reflected in a superficial quality to one's professional interests, as though achievement in and acclaim are more important than mastery of the field itself.

Pathological forms of narcissism are more easily identified by the quality of the individual's relationships.

One tragedy affecting these people is their inability to love. Healthy interpersonal relationships can be recognised by qualities such as empathy and concern for the feelings of others, a genuine interest in the ideas of others, the ability to tolerate ambivalence in long-term relationships without giving up, and a capacity to acknowledge one's own contribution to interpersonal conflicts. People who are characterised by these qualities may at times use others to gratify their own needs, but the tendency occurs in the broader context of sensitive interpersonal relatedness rather than as a pervasive style of dealing with other people. One the other hand, the person with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder approaches people as objects to be used up and discarded according to his or her needs, without regard for their feelings.

People are not viewed as having a separate existence or as having needs of their own. The individual with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder frequently ends a relationship after a short time, usually when the other person begins to make demands stemming from for his or her own needs. Most importantly, such relationships clearly do not 'work' in terms of the narcissist's ability to maintain his or her own sense of self-esteem."

"…These criteria [the DSM-IV-TR's] identify a certain kind of narcissistic patient �?specifically, the arrogant, boastful, 'noisy' individual who demands to be in the spotlight. However, they fail to characterise the shy, quietly grandiose, narcissistic individual whose extreme sensitivity to slights leads to an assiduous avoidance of the spotlight."

The DSM-III-R alluded to at least two types of narcissists, but the DSM-IV-TR committee chose to delete this:

"…included criterion, 'reacts to criticism with feelings of rage, shame, or humiliation (even not if expressed)' due to lack of 'specificity'."

Other theoreticians, clinicians and researchers similarly suggested a division between "the oblivious narcissist" (a.k.a. overt) and "the hypervigilant narcissist" (a.k.a. covert).

(continued below)


This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

Click HERE to buy the print edition from Barnes and Noble or HERE to buy it from Amazon or HERE to buy it from The Book Source

Click HERE to buy the print edition from the publisher and receive a BONUS PACK

Click HERE to buy various electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships

Click HERE to buy the ENTIRE SERIES of eight electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships

These may be of help - click on the links:

Rescue Fantasies - Surviving the Narcissist

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq80.html

The Malignant Optimism of the Abused

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal27.html

The Inverted Narcissist - Codependence and Relationships with Abusive
Narcissists

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq66.html

Codependence and the Dependent Personality Disorder

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders22.html

The Dependent Patient - A Case Study

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders56.html

Danse Macabre - Trauma bonding and the Stockholm Syndrome

http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily.html

The Cult of the Narcissist

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal79.html


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