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General : DR. VAKNIN'S WEEKLY CASE STUDY: LISA
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Reply
 Message 1 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname-Tammy_S-  (Original Message)Sent: 23/08/2004 2:21 a.m.
Here is Lisa's history:
I met my N almost 5 years ago.  He swept me off my feet and things moved very quickly. By our third date, he was buying me expensive personal gifts (jewelry) and offering to pay my bills.  This was a great help to me since I was struggling somewhat.  He told me he hated "dating" and wanted a relationship with me. He called me and saw me almost every day and night.  Money was no object to him it seemed.  From the beginning, my friends that had met him said that I was not myself around him. My family could sense that he was very "rigid".  He is not very social or at ease with people and comes off as being rather rude. 
 He has not seen his mother in 15 years (my n is 45) and said that in his eyes, "she is dead".  His dad passed away in 83 and he only spoke of his father and what his dad did with himself and his brothers. He had no pictures or never talked about his childhood or past.  He has NO contact with anyone in his family (aunts, uncles, cousins, etc) and does not associate with his brothers and sister unless he would run into them in a store. There was never ONE friend that called the house for him the entire time we were together.  My N moved in with me a few months after we started dating...he follows a strict workout schedule at home (he would never set foot in a gym) and could not deviate from his schedule. I altered my schedule and my 3 sons around his so that he would not be inconvenienced in any way.  He had many ideas that I thought were ridiculous, such as only eating lunchmeat from one deli and he would not deviate or try anywhere else...he would do things HIS way or no way and the entire rest of the world were idiots.  He would not and did not want to attend family get togethers, bdays, or holidays with my family. He told me that he did not care about my childhood and had no interest in looking at old pictures because he did not know me back then. 
Whenever we went out to dinner or to a movie (he despises drinking and thinks everyone who has a drink is an alcoholic) he would accuse me of "looking" at someone.  I would beg him to believe that I was not and sometimes he would not talk to me for a day or two.  He would always tell me that I was his "baby" and so beautiful, but then he would put me down and want to tell me what to wear to work or if we went out. He said that I did not dress like a 38 year old woman should dress! We always did things together, lived in our own "bubble" because he never liked anyone.  All of my friends were "low life scum", my family were losers.  The funny thing is that my family are all sincere, honest people and no one has ever had a problem with my family.  I adhered to all of my N's crazy rules regarding my kids even though I didn’t agree with them.  He would put down my ex husband and tell me that he could not believe I was married to such an ugly loser (my ex husband is much better looking than N) and he would constantly tell me that I would never get better than him.  I have never cried so much as I did the past 4.5 years of my life...my N left once before we married and then came back 3 weeks later and said he was ready to get married.  We did, but things stayed the same with our relationship.  When I wanted to go to the gym, he wanted me to go in a "back door" so that the men would not see me.  He would constantly accuse me of thinking I was so wonderful, when in fact, I boosted his ego and told him how great he was every single day.  The sexual part was terriffic and always was.  We did have many good times together, the two of us, in the beginning.   I loved him more than I have ever loved anyone before and would beg him to forgive me, talk to me, stop giving me the silent treatment....and he would look at me with the eyes and face of a robot and pretend he did not see or hear me cry for hours.  It was like he was not human. There was no pleasing him...
My N was married for 15 years to his first wife (no children). She is a churchgoing, very nice woman who does not speak bad of anyone. She told me "my only regret in life was wasting 15 years with him"....she said it took her two years of therapy to be able to look out of a window without fear he would say she was looking at someone. My N also got phsycial with me towards the end...he said that he would never allow me to be with anyone else.
One month shy of our 2nd anniversary he said he was leaving for health reasons (he had started getting panic attacks, anxiety,etc).  He was always a hypochondriac with all medications, even aspirin. He went to a million doctors and had every test imagined performed and was told by each doctor that he should consider seeing a therapist. When my N left, I fell apart, I was and still am unable to move on completely.  For the entire year that he has been gone, he has told me he wants his life and wife back (at least a dozen times) and would call me and we would see each other for up to 3 weeks, then he would say he loved me, but was not "in love" with me.  I was devastated each and every month for the past year. Of course, he always wanted us to make love, he would want me to spend the nights with him, and he would swear and lie that he was not on dating sites.  He is very anti social and the dating sites are still a shock to me.  When he moved out, he joined dating sites and is still on them to date.  He is on about 6 sites, even sites looking for foreign brides.  He has waited for me if I went out in the evening and beat on me when I arrived home with a girlfriend, although he was the one who stood me up for an internet date...a few minutes later he would say that I drove him to do this to me and he didn’t want to hurt me, he loved me.....
I have been in therapy for a year, they were going to send me away for a week to get intensive help but I am now trying to focus and do this on my own.  I cannot bear to think of him with someone else, yet I know he probably used me.  He told me 11 days ago that I am a good person, very pretty, and he would always care about me, but would stop doing this to me.  He has kept his word.  These are only a FEW of the things my N has done to me...I walked on eggshells every day for fear of upsetting him, fear my kids would make a noise while he watched football for 12 hours straight...didn’t cook his dinner the correct way...he could have nothing re-heated...he was always right and the world was always wrong.  If I didn’t answer the phone on the first ring when he called me at work, he would accuse me of flirting with someone or going to lunch with someone.  I never cheated on this man and he had to know he meant the world to me. 
Sorry this is not very clear and concise..my mind is very jumbled trying to get this all out...
 
 

Will this man change when he is with the next person he wants to spend his life with? Can he be "normal"?



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Reply
 Message 2 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 23/08/2004 4:59 p.m.
Hi, Lisa, welcome aboard,
 
At the age of 45 you expect him to change?
 
To him you were and are an object - utterly interchangeable. Why should he treat the next object better than he had treated you?
 
Here is his profile, written long before this weekly case:
 
 
 
And these:
 
 
Don't feel even remotely responsible for his behavior. You are so meaningless to him that even he would find the idea of your "influence" over him laughable.
 

Reply
 Message 3 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname-Tammy_S-Sent: 24/08/2004 2:03 a.m.
I received an email from my STBXN saying he wanted to part as friends and I was a good mother and person and he hoped I found someone that would make me happy and that if I wanted we could stay in touch. Would an N actually send a nice email if he was indeed an N?

Reply
 Message 4 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 24/08/2004 3:11 p.m.
Hi, Lisa,
 
Evidently, you are a good source of narcissistic supply and the narcissist hopes to continue to use you in the future. Hence his transparent attempt to "maintain" the relationship and remain in your good graces.

One should be careful not to romanticise the narcissist. His remorse and good behaviour are always linked to fears of losing his sources.

Narcissists have no enemies. They have only Sources of Narcissistic Supply. An enemy means attention means supply. One holds sway over one's enemy. If the narcissist has the power to provoke emotions in you, then you are still a Source of Supply to him, regardless of which emotions are provoked.

The narcissist seeks out his old Sources of Narcissistic Supply when he has absolutely no other NS Sources at his disposal. Narcissists frantically try to recycle their old and wasted sources in such a situation. But the narcissist would not do even that had he not felt that he could still successfully extract a modicum of NS from the old source (even to attack the narcissist is to recognise his existence and to attend to him!!!).

If you are an old Source of Narcissistic Supply, first, get over the excitement of seeing him again. It may be flattering, perhaps sexually arousing. Try to overcome these feelings.

Then, simply ignore him. Don't bother to respond in any way to his offer to get together. If he talks to you �?keep quiet, don't answer. If he calls you �?listen politely and then say goodbye and hang up. Return his gifts unopened. Indifference is what the narcissist cannot stand. It indicates a lack of attention and interest that constitutes the kernel of negative NS to be avoided.

Narcissists are addicted to a drug known as "Narcissistic Supply". Attention (good OR bad), adulation, applause, fame, celebrity, notoriety - are all narcissistic supply. The people who supply these consistently, reliably, and predictably, are called "Narcissistic Supply Sources".

Why should the narcissist look for another source of supply if the current source of supply is available and always accepts him back?

Cultivating a source of secondary narcissistic supply is a VERY time consuming and energy depleting affair. The narcissist always prefers the path of least resistance (reverting to old sources).

The old source has the advantage of having witnessed and "recorded" the narcissist's past grandeur. Her very repeated "surrender" and "yielding to his charm" IS the narcissistic supply he seeks.

More generally, the narcissist sort of pushes the envelope, trying to ascertain and map the outer limits of his potency as an irresistible male and desirable mate. The more tortured the relationship - the sweeter the recurrent "victory" (reconciliation). This is doubly true when the narcissist is in the throes of life crises such as loss of a job, divorce, serious illness, etc.

He then tends to derive self esteem and a sense of self worth by proxy, by being associated with a successful woman

You may wish to refresh your memory regarding libidinal allocation in pathological narcissists:

http//samvak.tripod.com/msla7.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/msla8.html

To summarize:

Your narcissist keeps coming back and remains fixated on you because he has no free libido to employ in the pursuit of alternative sources. And because you keep accepting him back.

Take care.

Sam


Reply
 Message 5 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname-Tammy_S-Sent: 25/08/2004 1:40 a.m.
Is it possible that if someone meets his every demand, he will act normal and not treat the next person as he treated his ex wife and myself..(a foreign bride perhaps)

Reply
 Message 6 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 25/08/2004 1:50 p.m.
Lisa,
 
Why are you obsessed with this man? What do you care about his future wife (wives, more likely)? You must pull yourself together (with professional help, if necessary). This is not a healthy path you are treading. Next thing, you will be stalking him ...
 
Read these:
 
 
 
Regarding your next question, complete subservience only prolongs the relationship - but does not alter its NATURE or its COURSE!
 
The narcissist idealizes, uses, devalues, and discards - only to repeat the same cycle over and over again with new sources of supply.
 
 
 
 
Take care.
 
Sam

Reply
 Message 7 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname-Tammy_S-Sent: 26/08/2004 1:30 a.m.
Could his childhood have something to do with the way he is and acts (cannot relax, let loose, uptight). His brother says his mother was psychologically abusive, but my N says that his brother is nuts. All his brothers and sisters had drinking and drug problems.

Reply
 Message 8 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 26/08/2004 12:45 p.m.
Hi, Lisa,
 
How can I answer your question when I know nothing about his childhood and very little about the man himself?
 
Everything in our lives is determined in childhood - and this includes our personality (character).
 
More here:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Take care.
 
Sam

Reply
The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 9 of 11 in Discussion 
Sent: 27/08/2004 1:07 a.m.
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Reply
 Message 10 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname-Tammy_S-Sent: 27/08/2004 5:44 p.m.
My STBX was married to a woman for 15 years. She tells me it was the biggest regret of her life but wont say much more. Is it typical for an N to stay married to someone that long if they really are an N? From what I have read, this does not seem typical.  Could he suddenly have developed N traits (all of them) because he fell out of love with me?

Reply
 Message 11 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 27/08/2004 7:29 p.m.
Hi, Lisa,
 
I really advise you to read the links I hand-picked for you (laughing).
 

Narcissists "love" their spouses or other significant others �?/SPAN> as long as they continue to reliably provide them with Narcissistic Supply (in one word, with attention). Inevitably, they regard others as mere "sources", objects, or functions. Lacking empathy and emotional maturity, the narcissist's love is pathological. But the precise locus of the pathology depends on the narcissist's stability or instability in different parts of his life.

From "The Unstable Narcissist":

(I have omitted below large sections. For a more elaborate treatment, please read the FAQ itself.)

"Narcissists belong to two broad categories: the 'compensatory stability' and the 'enhancing instability' types.

I. Compensatory Stability ('Classic') Narcissists

These narcissists isolate one or more (but never most) aspects of their lives and 'make these aspect/s stable'. They do not really invest themselves in it. The stability is maintained by artificial means: money, celebrity, power, fear. A typical example is a narcissist who changes numerous workplaces, a few careers, a myriad of hobbies, value systems or faiths. At the same time, he maintains (preserves) a relationship with a single woman (and even remains faithful to her). She is his 'island of stability'. To fulfil this role, she just needs to be there physically.

The narcissist is dependent upon 'his' woman to maintain the stability lacking in all other areas of his life (to compensate for his instability). Yet, emotional closeness is bound to threaten the narcissist. Thus, he is likely to distance himself from her and to remain detached and indifferent to most of her needs. Despite this cruel emotional treatment, the narcissist considers her to be a point of exit, a form of sustenance, a fountain of empowerment. This mismatch between what he wishes to receive and what he is able to give, the narcissist prefers to deny, repress and bury deep in his unconscious. This is why he is always shocked and devastated to learn of his wife's estrangement, infidelity, or divorce intentions. Possessed of no emotional depth, being completely one track minded �?he cannot fathom the needs of others. In other words, he cannot empathise.

II. Enhancing Instability ('Borderline') Narcissist

The other kind of narcissist enhances instability in one aspect or dimension of his life �?by introducing instability in others. Thus, if such a narcissist resigns (or, more likely, is made redundant) �?he also relocates to another city or country. If he divorces, he is also likely to resign his job. This added instability gives these narcissists the feeling that all the dimensions of their life are changing simultaneously, that they are being 'unshackled', that a transformation is in progress. This, of course, is an illusion. Those who know the narcissist, no longer trust his frequent 'conversions', 'decisions', 'crises', 'transformations', 'developments' and 'periods'. They see through his pretensions and declarations into the core of his instability. They know that he is not to be relied upon. They know that with narcissists, temporariness is the only permanence."

We are, therefore, faced with two pathological forms of narcissistic "love".

One type of narcissist "loves" others as one would attach to objects. He "loves" his spouse, for instance, simply because she exists and is available to provide him with Narcissistic Supply. He "loves" his children because they are part of his self-image as a successful husband and father. He "loves" his "friends" because �?/SPAN> and only as long as �?/SPAN> he can exploit them.

Such a narcissist reacts with alarm and rage to any sign of independence and autonomy in his "charges". He tries to "freeze" everyone around him in their "allocated" positions and "assigned roles". His world is rigid and immovable, predictable and static, fully under his control. He punishes for "transgressions" against this ordained order. He thus stifles life as a dynamic process of compromising and growing �?/SPAN> rendering it instead a mere theatre, a tableau vivant.

The other type of narcissist abhors monotony and constancy, equating them, in his mind, with death. He seeks upheaval, drama, and change �?/SPAN> but only when they conform to his plans, designs, and views of the world and of himself. Thus, he does not encourage growth in his nearest and dearest. By monopolizing their lives, he, like the other kind of narcissist, also reduces them to mere objects, props in the exciting drama of his life.

This narcissist likewise rages at any sign of rebellion and disagreement. But, as opposed to the first sub-species, he seeks to animate others with his demented energy, grandiose plans, and megalomaniacal self-perception. An adrenaline junkie, his world is a whirlwind of comings and goings, reunions and separations, loves and hates, vocations adopted and discarded, schemes erected and dismantled, enemies turned friends and vice versa. His Universe is equally a theatre, but a more ferocious and chaotic one.

Where is love in all this? Where is the commitment to the loved one's welfare, the discipline, the extension of oneself to incorporate the beloved, the mutual growth?

Nowhere to be seen. The narcissist's "love" is hate and fear disguised �?/SPAN> fear of losing control and hatred of the very people his precariously balanced personality so depends on. The narcissist is egotistically committed only to his own well-being. To him, the objects of his "love" are interchangeable and inferior.

He idealizes his nearest and dearest not because he is smitten by emotion �?/SPAN> but because he needs to captivate them and to convince himself that they are worthy Sources of Supply, despite their flaws and mediocrity. Once he deems them useless, he discards and devalues them similarly cold-bloodedly. A predator, always on the lookout, he debases the coin of "love" as he corrupts everything else in himself and around him.

Narcissism is the outcome of events in childhood - and never of a single trauma in adulthood (though there is something called Acquired Situational Narcissism ).

Again, I have to refer you to links that I posted earlier (in message 8).

Hope you derived some benefit from this exchange.

Take care.

Sam


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