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General : Confronting my N with his problems ...
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Reply
 Message 1 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknameon-and-upwards  (Original Message)Sent: 16/11/2008 3:04 p.m.
I have just confronted my N with the facts - stopping short at saying he has NPD - despite him asking what is wrong with him. 
 
Our beautiful daughter is 2 months old.  He is in town with his new girlfriend for the w/e before they leave to start life on the other side of the world.  He and I (I asked to meet his girlfriend but he refused) have spent quite a bit of time together.  We have a lovely time as long as I treat him like no more than a friend, aportion no blame, be cheerful and happy and just go along as though he has never treated me badly.   Today, I finally cracked.  We had to talk about finances (he is very wealthy) and support for his child, and we clearly have different views on what is reasonable (despite my having seen two lawyers so know exactly what is reasonable) - and he then called me a "psychotic bitch" and this was the reason he broke up with me. That was it. I then told him all about projection, I told that he had a serious fear of intimacy which then manifests itself as abuse - that he was a mental, emotional and psycholgical abuser - and that he was in serious need of help.  His disordered mind was the reasons his relationships never worked out ... blah, blah.  It was very satisfying getting it all off my chest.  He then stormed out of my flat, without saying goodbye to the daugher he professes to love.  About half an hour later he came back (after a couple of txt message exchanges). We sat in silence for about 20 minutes while he played with our daughter. He then started conversation and I asked what I had ever done wrong, he couldn't say anything, because there is nothing he can say.  He then questioned why girlfriends only realise when it's over what they are missing.  I guess the response I should have given was that they, like me, want to be the one to change him into the wonderful person he could and should be (and is much of the time, although it may be false) - but I didn't. I just said I didn't want him back - unless he were to have some serious therapy, which I know he will never do.
 
I've no idea if anyone has ever told him before that he has serious problems.  Do you think any of it will have hit home?  I don't expect it to - but he is such an intelligent man (and does have a totally charming, lovely side) I just hope that maybe it has.  I guess if something hit home it will only benefit his currently girlfriend and not me - which would be tragic for my daughter and I.  But I suspect I'm being rediculous thinking that he might actually believe anything I said.  It has been a horrendous morning, I am so sad and upset - I total understand the concept of 'no contact' with these people, but I cannot deny him his daughter. I am so happy until I have to see him again .. it just brings back everything that might have been and it is so terribly upsetting.
 
Any support would really be appreciated.


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Reply
 Message 2 of 9 in Discussion 
From: Freebird13Sent: 16/11/2008 3:49 p.m.
On and Up
 
While getting all this off your chest made you feel better it is highly unlikely that it will have any lasting effect on him.
 
I too did the same thing and actually told the exN that he was an N or had some other personality disorder.  He actually agreed with me and read some books on the subject as well as looked it up online.  He even made an appt with this MD and was going to go see a psychiatrist,  all the while I made it clear to him that even if he did get treatment etc,  I would NOT be going back with him,  he needed to do this for HIM and his future.
 
Well,  he went to his PCP who Dx him with Bipolar,  without doing any testing and put him on some sort of medication for it.  The ExN now thinks he is all better.  So no going to a psychiatrist to get a full scale psych evaluation with follow up proper medications and psychotherapy. 
 
The point is,  even if you get them to admit somethign is wrong and see it for themselves,  are they really going to put in the time,  effort and money to even try to change?  Having NPD or other PD is not a walk in the park,  prognosis is poor anyway but they are not likely to participate in therapy for long.  They do it until they either get you back  or find another souce of NS and then they label themselves cured and go on about life as if nothing happened and they will continue to leave a path of destruction in their wake.
 
The exN I am speaking of who claims to be changed is 42yrs old,  what are the chances of him recovering?  He thinks he has changed yet I still see the same old problems,  he will text me and tell me how much he loves and misses me and that I am the most amazing woman on the planet and then that same night he is out wiht another girl borrowing daddies car to try to impress her.
 
You are doing the best thing you can do for you and your daughter.  Stay NC as much as possible,  see him for what he is and deal with him on that level but do NOT go back.  Would you spend your last dollar on a lottery ticket?  Taht is what you would be doing if you invest anything else on someone who is an N,  the chance of them changing is like thaf of winning the lottery.
 
Good luck to you and your daughter.  I am sure there is something way better out there for you,  you both deserve to be treated with love,  respect and dignity every day or your lives

Reply
 Message 3 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamelil_sexy_devil_02Sent: 16/11/2008 4:05 p.m.
Confronting a N with his problems is a total waste of time as the N has no problems. N's blame everything on others and feel there is nothing wrong with them.Confronting an N with his problems is like nailing jello to a wall. N's are incapable of changing as that is part of their disorder and over time they just get worse. Instead of worrying whether or not this will hit home with your N (trust me it won't) do something nice for yourself and your daughter.

Reply
 Message 4 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknameselly2097Sent: 16/11/2008 4:29 p.m.
I did the same thing with my xn....confronted him with it...tho i had been confronting him with rather a few things that did not add up for sometime anyway...
I also thought bugger...I'm sharing all this info with him and it will just help him and his new OW....but then I figured anything my xn gains from the little knowledge he now has about NPD...he will just change his talk...but he will still walk the walk as he is a N.
He will use what he has learn't about NPD not in a pruductive way at all...he will use it to benifit himself...
I'm kicking myself now for even telling him about it!
My xn is hardly going to say to his new ow...o sorry I just need to take a break for say 10 yrs so I can get some help is he!...
don't even go there and think he is going to be any different with another woman...it nearly killed me thinking that...and that was what was stopping me going NC...the thought that he would be better to someone else...
The thing with me an my xn is that I started to unmack him long ago...not becaus eI was a nagging bitch as he put it...but because I was in love with a man who did not make any sense at all....
which is why he would have gone and got a new ns..as he would have figured i was catching on to him...They don't like that....
They would rather go and present themselves all a fresh to someone new...
Pathetic they are.....
You wont change him..the ow wont change him....no one will...Sad but true I'm afraid...
Keep on this board and learn and gain help from others....
xo

Reply
 Message 5 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamefemfreeSent: 16/11/2008 8:31 p.m.
HI onwardsandupwards.
 
It seldom does any good to confront them with the narcissism. Here's why
 
From: Loving the Self Absorbed, Nina W. Brown
If you are convinced, or feel reasonably certain that you are in a relationship with a destructive narcissist, you may be tempted to do all or any of the following
Tell your partner that he or she is a destructive narcissist.
Confront your partner about their behavior and attitudes.
Leave this book where you partner can see it with the hope that they will read it and see what they are doing.
Give your partner the book and tell them to read it, since it’s about them.


Do not do any of the above, or anything similar. Here is why these acts are not helpful.


Persons with a destructive narcissist pattern cannot see the behaviors and attitudes they exhibit as you and others perceive them. They are unaware of the impact on you, and are well defended against knowing. Further, your attempts to make them aware or get through to them will fail, and will be perceived as threats to their core essential self. This will bring out their defenses for protection. The defenses are likely to be hostile, aggressive, strong and immediately available to them, so that they are able to attack and mount a strong counteroffensive in a nanosecond. You generally do not win or make any headway, and can find yourself in a worse position than before.


(Note: members find this a VERY SUCCESSFUL Tactic)
How to Leave a Narcissist. The narcissist analyses (and internalizes) everything in terms of blame and guilt, superiority and inferiority, gain (victory) and loss (defeat) and the resulting matrix of narcissistic supply. Narcissists are binary contraptions. Thus, the formula is very simple: Shift the blame to yourself ("I don't know what happened to me, I have changed, it is my fault, I am to blame for this, you are constant, reliable and consistent).

Tell him you feel guilty (excruciatingly so, in great and picturesque detail). Tell him how superior he is and how inferior you feel. Make this separation your loss and his absolute, unmitigated gain. Convince him that he is likely to gain more supply from others (future women?) than he ever did or will from you. BUT Make clear that your decision - though evidently "erroneous" and "pathological" - is FINAL, irrevocable and that all contact is to be severed henceforth. And never leave ANYTHING in writing.
Excerpts from the Archives of the Narcissism List
http://samvak.tripod.com/archive35.html

http://www.runboard.com/bnarcissisticabuserecovery

You are right - you cannot deny him access to your daughter. In fact, even with a father with a personaly disorder, the court's view is to not deny the child access to the father. You will need to learn the special ropes of contact in this situation and, we have oodles of help at our new site. Only in cases of physical assault or severe emotional trauma to the child do the courts award supervised visitation.

Do not discuss anything to do with finances or visitation until it's worked out with your lawyer.   Do not let him into your house. He has chosen somebody else and, as horrific as this is for you and sweetie my heart pours out to you having such a young child and going through this nightmare and on top of it we need to build an armour to give ourselves maximum self control to put up boundaries. You will need to do this for your safety and your sanity.

Now that you have told him that you think he's a little 'off', he'll no doubt go straight to the girlfriend telling her and everybody else that you are claiming he has a mental problem and that you are trying to keep him away from his daughter. If he has NPD, his defence mechanisms will kick in and you  can and will be subject to the hell of his vengeance against you.

Learn as much as you can as fast as you can and protect yourself financially and emotionally.

When he tries to discuss the divorce or financial settlements, tell him to talk to his lawyer, say nothing as all or "I don't know N, we'll h ave to discuss this with the lawyers." All you will be doing is disclosing your vulnerabilities and giving him a clue about what you will accept.  Say nothing and give yourself permission to refuse to discuss anything and to answer any questions.  The only questions you answer are those about visitiation and, you only respond to his actual questions.

Do read our pages on bullyproofing yourself and verbal abuse management. I hate to fast-track you into the drop kick of reality of dealing with these people, but it's the best favour I can do for you right now. Please also read out page on Avoiding the Ns Rage - you can find these pages recently updated at our new site. We hope to see you there.

Sometimes it looks hopeless. Abusers are ruthless, immoral, sadistic, calculated, cunning, persuasive, deceitful - in short, they appear to be invincible. They easily sway the system in their favor. Here is a list of escalating countermeasures. They represent the distilled experience of thousands of victims of abuse. They may help you cope with abuse and overcome it.
Coping with Your Abuser �?Dr. Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse3.html<o:p></o:p>

You write...

and he then called me a "psychotic bitch"

you see, he's already started ..... and yes, I know this is projection, but do believe me when I tell you that he will try to destroy you six ways from hell. Your N will now work double hard to try to make you act crazy so watch for this type of bait where he provokes you into acting in a emotional crazy manner. He will just love to be able to get full custody, turn over the care and feeding of the child to the OW, you will have to try to negotiate through the maze of the roadblocks he will put to even get to see your own child and he will chortle all the way to the bank as he collects child support - from you.

You also should check out our pages on Divorce Snapshots

Let me tell you about Mrs. J. who, 7 times took her X back to court for upaid alimony and support. The N always counter sued for full custody. On the 7th time, the N won. Mrs. J lost her house, her job, her children and was left in a nightmare of emotional ruin, bankrupt and fighting the N to see her own children.

"Wealthy soccer moms are seen leaving the courtroom with glazed eyes, the patronizing words of their attorney apologizing for the loss of the children in their ears, and descend into a spiral of poverty and madness.The law is not a 2x4. Women and families are not trash to be thrown away. Support issues are not vehicles to drive vendettas. I dream of ethical watchdogs that will stop you..."
DIVORCE - The Real Truth, The Hidden Dangers Surviving Deception, Betrayal and Narcissism - Ann Bradley, M.A.
 

"I suppose you can tell I'm scared. I believe I will end up either dead or in a mental hospital very soon if something drastic doesn't happen. He is so diabolical and so convincing to other people that my own family has abandoned me. My kids have also been brainwashed, something I would have bet my life could never happen. All of my financial means have been exhausted. Child support should have been more than enough to make it until I could finish my degree, but he quit his job to keep me from having money, and no matter what I try to do, I hit a big brick wall."<o:p></o:p>

"The night he dumped me, the last thing he said to me before wandering out was 'protect yourself'. I've always puzzled over exactly what he meant, and those words have come back to haunt me now - that warning to get away from him. Without a doubt, the worst had yet to come�?
Narcissism Book of Quotes
http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/NPDQuotes.rtf

 

At the end of a relationship the Narcissist faces the potential exposure of his abusive behaviour, your leaving and loss of expected NS (Narcissistic Supply), ensuing divorce, financial repercussions, can result in narcissistic injury and subsequent narcissistic rage. His targets find themselves on the receiving end of the Narcissist's relentless abuse, smear campaign, endless legal battles and other creative cruelties. This narcissistic rage may be, in fact, much worse than what you experienced within the relationship.
Victims may have experienced severe physical or psychological abuse. That abuse, of course, is hidden behind closed doors. Seldom is there proof or witnesses.
Avoiding the Ns Rage
http://www.runboard.com/bnarcissisticabuserecovery.f17.t98

What to do?  In fact, I'd advise you to reverse engines. Apologize for what you said. Tell him you were upset. Tell him that, "of course there won't be a problem with any visitation, I know you're a great dad." - IOW pour on the NS and if you can do this in public where there are orthers watching, that's N gravy. I know you'd rather chew glass and mentally want to put a bullet between his eyes, but in fact, that's your ticket. Make him look like a fool when he calls you the crazy one.

I know these are cold words. One day I hope you'll thank me.

Hugs to you dear mom

The best strategy for Targets of their Blame is to take a very Assertive Approach �?to quickly provide credible factual information to the court and to try to be as perfect as possible in every way during the court process.
SPLITTING �?Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist
by William A. Eddy, Attorney, Mediator and Clinical Social Worker
http://www.bpdcentral.com/bks/spy.shtml


Reply
 Message 6 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamefemfreeSent: 16/11/2008 8:35 p.m.
This page links to our recovery site of member's quotes.
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 7 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname_flyingfree03_Sent: 16/11/2008 11:30 p.m.
My thoughts:
 
1. How lucky for you if he's really going to the other side of the world!
 
2. If he's wealthy he can use the courts, and everything femfree says is vitally important. Don't tell a soul you think he is NPD, and don't ever confront him like that again. (It won't help him, and it WILL hurt you if he has the money to punish you.)
 
I had to learn the hard way too after trying to "get something off my chest" and correct the smear campaign. Since I've "reversed engines," as femfree says, things have gone my way in court. That's the only thing that counts (my children). I no longer care about the smear campaign.
 
Best wishes,
Flying

Reply
 Message 8 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameTrinity38100Sent: 17/11/2008 2:17 a.m.
If he is NPD, which I believe your therapist mentioned she suspected before, the answer is absolutely NOT, none of it will hit home, none of it will make a difference - not today, not tomorrow, not ever.  Intelligence has nothing to do with being disordered, just as being the target of an N has nothing to do with intelligence.
 
You are allowing him to control you by providing you financing at his whim.  You are much better off to have this legally settled with set visistation so you do not have to bend over backwards lest you annoy him and he stop funding you.
 
You also do not ever know how a narcissist will react to hearing things about himself, especially in the heat of an argument.  That can be dangerous regardless of a person being an N or not.  With an N, it is much more dangerous.  You may feel satisfied to get this out of your system, but don't expect him to forget it anytime soon.
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 9 of 9 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknameon-and-upwardsSent: 17/11/2008 5:08 p.m.
thank you for all the replies.  what i did does rather scare me now - but in the heat of the moment i just cracked.  i've put up with his abuse too long and this was the final straw. 
 
the sad thing is that i actually only want to help him help himself - he wants to be happy and have the family etc. but he can't do it and i don't think he knows why.   i did send him a txt message in the evening apologising for the things i said but also saying sorry that he said the things he said to me.  basically i was (yet again, for the sake of our daughter and because i am financially dependent on him right now) trying to make the peace. 
 
thanks again - i'm finding things difficult to cope with at the moment, maybe it's the gloomy winter weather - the only real positive is my beautiful daughter.  i'm thinking maybe i should see my therapist once more - i thought i was over that!  it's such a shame - i go through each day really happy, until i have to cross his path again and he just sets me back.  i wish there was some getting through to him ...
 
thanks again - i appreciate all the comments & support

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