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General : DR. VAKNIN'S WEEKLY CASE STUDY: SANE WOMAN
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(1 recommendation so far) Message 1 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname·TammyJo·  (Original Message)Sent: 9/02/2004 12:26 a.m.
Congratulations to Sane Woman for being this weeks case study! I am sure that it is going to be as good as ever!
 
 
Dr Vaknin,
    First, a thank you. Long ago, I had suspicions about my bf at least having NPD. ( I know a lot about psychology / the DSM but am not a professional of any kind) Lists of symptoms and facts are quite different from real living with it no matter how much you know. At a horrid point when I thought I might be going mad in it all, I found you on the web. I didn't yet know about the board or your involvement. I was in a state and sent off a mail to you. I expected an auto response, no response, maybe a response from an assistant of some kind. In a few minutes, you responded personally. You were very kind, helpful, and thoughtful. The insanity froze for me and I began to laugh out loud. It may have been my first taste of freedom and the road out. I couldn't get a straight answer or a moment of rational normalcy, let alone care or help from this person I dedicated my life to yet, a world famous N that didn't know me from Adam, took the time to be nice to me. It was so ironic and surprising that it cracked me up. I really appreciated your time, the info you sent, AND the moment to laugh, breathe, and return to my right mind :) Little things mean a lot!
 
My story has been told so many times. There are only a few things that make it unique and not very unique at that. It's long, complex and ugly...like they all are <sigh> I'll attach it if you or anyone wants to skim it but it doesn't matter to my questions enough to force it on you lol. I'm 37, in the final stretch of ending the P nightmare. Together 2 years, happy 3 months, finally got him out in Aug '03. He's is not diagnosed but I cannot see any shred of hope that there could be ANY other explanation :)
 The "Unique parts" are:
No contact doesn't phase him. He's just as happy to assume responses for me and respond to them in more mails to me lol. New supply doesn't stop it either. His entire world is ME and he lives 20 feet away :( He stalks me of course. I don't have any issues that are serious or critical so, my week will be casual :)
 
Grasping PPD and ending a relationship like this is like the death of a loved one. It isn't at all like breaking up / divorcing. It drives us to so many different things and feelings, almost against our own free will and desire. I'll stop . . . We all know the torture so that saves 20 pages :) When facing death, we are limited in how completely we can accept it. No one KNOWS for sure where we go, if our spirits live on, if our loved ones truly knew how much we cared etc. We all have some tiny bit of Ouiji board, psychic medium curiosities. I bring this up because I'm there with personality disorders and my P.
 
I've read it all and gone back to read it 5th and 6th times. I get it. I get it like I could write it.  I was hard pressed to pick 7 questions because I don't have 7 left. If there is some scrap I don't know, I don't care like I did before. I've beaten this horse to death. BUT that Ouiji board curiosity remains. That sick desire to know what they can never tell us. The raw and personal stuff the links and books don't tell us. To ask the ghost of the man I first loved . . . The last tid bits for me are like a mental anguish of "I know, I know, I know!!! ... BUT" I'd like to kick those Q's around in my little seven days. I don't wish to pry where I have no right or be too personal. (personal exp. welcome but not expected) I'll settle for your opinion. You do have the thoughts and the feelings and you know what there is when you're all alone and the day is done. I want whatever part of that you can share.
 
They sure seem to have little or no capacity for truth/reality. I used to think my P lived in his own reality and reality itself never crept in, NEVER. That the poor thing could not see reality. I now suspect that they see reality just fine and choose to bend it or twist it at will. I know they truly feel hurt, abandoned, betrayed, scared, lonely etc. (No matter how much they drive us away to begin with) I realize that it's not a picnic to have this disorder.  I know devaluing is a tactic. I wonder . . .  Do they know, deep down, (or somewhere in there) know that those things are lies? I'd like to understand the less tangible point where all the facts intersect. They choose infuriating / inflammatory things to say to force reactions. They appear to project their own flaws (infidelity, substance abuse, etc.) in accusations. They are paranoid. They go from perfect idealization to complete devaluing. They don't know how messed up they are. So many facts apply to the subject of devaluing but none answer the question. I'll bet 90% of the ability he had to pull my strings was because I wanted to scream reality from the rooftops. I wanted him to see ME not this insane perversion of me in his head (Perfect, OR devalued) I don't think any of us wrestle with no contact because we want contact deep down. We just want to magically murder that perverted version of us they created and get these people to admit that they do see us. I think they do too. I think that little so & so knows reality perfectly well and spins the insanity up. I think he does a bunch of it with premeditation when he wants something but I think some of it is beyond his control. Like some small feeling of fear / insecurity hits and the massive Devaluing and accusations come flying out and he knows it's nuts but can't stop. Then he gets sent away and he absolutely freaks out with fear / panic. Then the calculated crazy making gets planned and executed, ever escalating as it's ignored. B in other words. I just want to hear thoughts from inside the disorder vs about the disorder. I hope that's OK
 
You can't know any better than I can if my P knows for instance, that I didn't sleep with anyone or if he knows that I am fairly fantastic <wink> I hope it might be interesting for you, everyone, to ponder it all little differently for a week. Based on the general similarity of things one with this disorder is likely to say to hurt a mate . . . Using infidelity as an example for convenience. I wonder... Do they know it isn't true? Possibly select it because it isn't true and will hurt even more? Mine said once (in a very brief flash that actually seemed honest) That he only said devaluing things to convince himself that I was worthless because to lose me knowing how good I was, would kill him. That he was deliberately forcing his mind to hate me to avoid hurt. I see all the ways they use and twist things ...I just don't know how much is real at first, how much becomes real for them. I don't want miracles. Just your best guess ... above and beyond links and other books...Just putting yourself in the shoes because you can say so much others can not...
 
When a P or N starts ranting about a mate having an affair, what's real for them?
 
 A) Does the N/P think he/she was blind and fooled by a cunning mask and feel hurt  to discover that their mate was actually a whore? 
 
B) Does he/she know that they didn't cheat and just says it to make them crazy, extract supply, make them swear they love him/her, etc.?
 
C) Might they believe both at different times and be too crazy to even see that this happens?
 
D) All of the above
 
E) Other

Thanks So Much,
Sane
 
 


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(1 recommendation so far) Message 2 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 9/02/2004 5:25 p.m.
Hello, Sane Woman, and thank you for your kind words.
 
A great narcissist said once that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes romantic jealousy is just that - irrational, gnawing, green-eyed, obsessive, dangerous.
 
Narcissists are paranoid. They assume naturally that they are being constantly fooled, conned, taken for a ride, taken advantage of, exploited, conspired against, and, in general, abused. It is a curious inversion of reality. This propensity grows as the narcissist ages:
 
 
 
 
Narcissists are also adept manipulators. Inducing guilt feelings in others is a prime manipulatory technique. Put them on the defensive, make them feel guilty or responsible, and they will do whatever it takes to regain favor with their accuser. This is the infamous Stockholm Syndrome (traumatic bonding):
 
 
 
 
Add to this acquired misogynism and it is clear that we are dealing with a psychodynamic brew - a mixture of motives and drives:
 
 
 
Take care.
 
Sam
 
PS:

For detailed insight into the mind of one narcissist - go here:
 

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(1 recommendation so far) Message 3 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname·TammyJo·Sent: 9/02/2004 8:11 p.m.
My next three questions deal with how they can be so crazy with us, so fine and dandy with the rest of the world. If I have to deal with my P in the future, this part would have the most gravity. I celebrated no longer loving him, only to be sad for those I love that he can still hurt. Disclaimer: I cannot see any way to help the ones I love or ever have contact with my P. This is pretty much for understanding and debate only :) Knowing my P 20 years with no real reason to ever suspect such serious problems, I'm even more bewildered by how they can be so different out side of the home, out side of the relationship. My xbf was  the high functioning / classy / intelligent / well respected / successful /  you'd never know he's crazy type. I certainly understand how others don't see because I was ONE OF THEM lol. As his "buddy' he never behaved in any bad way in front of me or to me. Then I became "the one" as such I became the enemy.
 
It's always about them, about supply and everyone's usefulness. I read and read about all the things that are the same. I just don't understand enough about what is different. My guy doesn't even always flip out like this with all women. I might be lucky enough to be the worst of all his relationship / post relationship dramas.  I'm guessing that is because he either had other motives (Housing, convenience, appearances for custody case, etc.) and they out lived their usefulness.  He chose to leave so there was no drama. It's just the ones that don't behave, want more, or won't put up with him that leave HIM and then there is drama. That part I understand enough I guess. I'm not talking about the obvious differences like sex or someone to mind the house and kids. I'm talking about what is different in their heads. How they "feel" about different people.
 
His colleagues, friends, family, and strangers make him feel insecure / harmed / slighted / offended / threatened or whatever.  (The things that set off the instant triggers) A paranoid person would be paranoid with everyone.  I get it, but I don't. He does not react with insanity nor does he burst into any automatic reaction. It appears like there is control or choice. I've heard about N's/ P's deeply hurting a parent, step parent, friend, or employer in much the same way they harm a partner. I conclude that the worst harm comes to "targets," not just lovers and everyone else plays bit parts in the feeding frenzy they call a life. What's bugging me in that "Ask the Ouiji board" way is, he IS  the disorder. It is a personality disorder not a girlfriend / wife / target disorder. It's more than being masters of deception. He couldn't love me and I had no power over him, but I consumed him and I felt the sick power of "that" every day.
 
What makes him / them be the text book N/P in every way and get consumed by some, and only slightly or not at all with others, if it is all that they are?

Reply
 Message 4 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 10/02/2004 2:43 p.m.
Hi, Sane woman,
 
You write:
 
A paranoid person would be paranoid with everyone.
 
Sam:
 
Not true. Paranoids target specific people or institutions for their persecutory delusions. They change the targets frequently and this gives the erroneous impression that they are paranoid with everyone.
 
Similarly, the narcissist interacts only with sources of narcissistic supply - spouse, mate, children, colleagues, sometimes neighbors, "friends", the authorities, service providers and suppliers, and so on. All others do not exist, as far as he is concerned. He is nice to theses non-existent entities in sort of an absent-minded and off-handed way.
 
Narcissistic Supply
 

We all look for positive cues from people around us. These cues reinforce in us certain behaviour patterns. There is nothing special in the fact that the narcissist does the same. However there are two major differences between the narcissistic and the normal personality.

The first difference is quantitative. The normal person is likely to welcome a moderate amount of attention �?verbal and non-verbal �?in the form of affirmation, approval, or admiration. Too much attention, though, is perceived as onerous and is avoided.

The narcissist, in contrast, is the mental equivalent of an alcoholic. He asks for more and yet more. He directs his whole behaviour, in fact his life, to obtain these pleasurable titbits of attention. He embeds them in a coherent, completely biased, picture of himself. He uses them to regulates his labile sense of self-worth and self-esteem.

To elicit constant interest, he projects to others a confabulated, fictitious version of himself, known as the False Self. The False Self is everything the narcissist is not: omniscient, omnipotent, charming, intelligent, rich, or well-connected.

The narcissist then proceeds to harvest reactions to this projected image from family members, friends, co-workers, neighbours, business partners and milieu, or from colleagues. If these �?the adulation, admiration, attention, fear, respect, applause, affirmation �?are not forthcoming, the narcissist demands them, or extorts them. Money, compliments, a favourable critique, an appearance in the media, a sexual conquest are all transformed into the same currency in the narcissist's mind.

This currency is what I call Narcissistic Supply (NS).

NS includes attention, fame, notoriety, adulation, fear, applause, approval. It is a mixed bag. If the narcissist gets attention �?positive or negative �?it constitutes NS. If he can manipulate people or influence them �?positively or negatively �?it qualifies as NS.

Even quarrelling with people constitutes NS. Perhaps not the fighting itself �?but the ability to influence other people, to induce feelings in them, to manipulate them emotionally, to make them do something or refrain from doing it.

NS releases libido (increases the sexual drive).

There are two immediate and easy Sources of Narcissistic Supply: publicity (celebrity or notoriety, being famous or being infamous) and having a mate or a companion. Publicity can be obtained by exposing oneself, by creating something, or by provoking attention. The narcissist resorts to all three repeatedly (as drug addicts do to secure their daily dose).

But the picture is more complicated. There are two categories of Narcissistic Supply and their Sources (NSS):

The Primary Narcissistic Supply Source is attention �?in both its public forms (fame, notoriety, infamy, celebrity) and private forms (adoration, adulation, applause, fear, repulsion). It is important to understand that attention of any kind �?positive and negative �?constitutes Primary Narcissistic Supply. Infamy is as useful as fame, notoriety as good as being renowned.

To the narcissist his "achievements" can be imaginary, fictitious, or only apparent, as long as others believe in them. Appearances count more than substance, what matters is not the truth but its perception.

The Primary Narcissistic Sources of Supply include �?apart from being famous (celebrity, notoriety, fame, infamy) �?mystique (when the narcissist is considered to be mysterious), having sex and deriving from it a sense of masculinity/virility/femininity, a projection of wealth, proximity to power (money/knowledge/contacts) �?in itself mysterious and awe inspiring.

The Secondary Sources of Narcissistic Supply include: leading a normal life (a source of great pride to the narcissist), having a secure existence (economic safety, social acceptability, upward mobility), and obtaining companionship.

The Secondary NSS include having a mate, conspicuous wealth, creativity and its products, running a business (transformed into a Pathological Narcissistic Space), the sense of an anarchic freedom, belonging to a group of people which make up a Pathological Narcissistic Space, being prestigious, reputable, or successful, owning property and status symbols (show-off).

All these sources, primary and secondary alike �?or rather the Narcissistic Supply that they provide �?are incorporated in a Narcissistic Pathological Space.

 
Functions of Narcissistic Supply
 

The narcissist internalises a "bad" object (typically, his mother) in his childhood. He develops socially forbidden feelings towards this object: hatred, envy, and aggression. These feelings reinforce the narcissist's self-image as bad and corrupt. Gradually he develops a dysfunctional sense of self-worth. His self-confidence and self-image become unrealistically low and distorted.

In an effort to repress the "bad" feelings, the narcissist is also forced to suppress the good emotions intertwined with them. His aggression is channelled to fantasies or to legitimate outlets (dangerous sports, gambling, reckless driving, compulsive shopping). The narcissist views the world as a hostile, unstable, unrewarding, unjust, and unpredictable place.

He defends himself by loving a completely controllable object (himself), by projecting to the world an omnipotent and omniscient False Self, and by turning others to functions or to objects so that they pose no emotional danger. This reactive pattern is what we call pathological narcissism.

To counter his demons the narcissist needs the world: its admiration, its adulation, its attention, its applause, even its penalties. The lack of a functioning personality on the inside is balanced by importing Ego functions and boundaries from the outside.

The Primary Narcissistic Supply reaffirms the narcissist's grandiose fantasies, buttresses his False Self and, thus allows him to regulate his fluctuating sense of self-worth. The Narcissistic Supply contains information which pertains to the "correctness" of the False Self, to its calibration, intensity and proper functioning. The Narcissistic Supply serves to define the boundaries of the False Self, to regulate its contents and to substitute for some of the functions normally reserved to a True, functioning, Self.

While it is easy to understand the function of the Primary Supply, the Secondary type is a more complicated affair.

The company of women and "doing business" are the two main Sources of Secondary Narcissistic Supply (SNSS). The narcissist mistakenly interprets his narcissistic needs as emotions. To him, the pursuit of a woman-SNSS, for instance, is what others call "love" or "passion".

As we said, the narcissist derives his Narcissistic Supply from PNSS and SNSS (Primary and Secondary Narcissistic Supply Sources). But this supply is perishable goods. The narcissist consumes it and has to replenish the supply. As is the case with other drug addictions, to produce the same effect, he is forced to increase the dosage as he goes.

While the narcissist uses up his supply, his partner serves as a silent (and admiring) witness to the narcissist's "great moments" and "achievements". The narcissist's female friend "accumulates" the narcissist's "grandeur" and "illustrious past". When Narcissistic Supply is low, she "releases" the accumulated supply (by reminding the narcissist of these moments of glory) and, thus, helps the narcissist to regulate his sense of self-worth.

This function �?of Narcissistic Supply accumulation and release �?is performed by all SNSS, male or female, inanimate or institutional. The narcissist's co-workers, bosses, colleagues, neighbours, and friends are all potential SNSS. They all witness the narcissist's past accomplishments and can remind him of them when new supply runs dry.

[In depth analyses of the mechanisms of Narcissistic Supply, its accumulation and regulation can be found here and here.]

Idealization and Devaluation
 

Narcissists are forever in pursuit of Narcissistic Supply. They are not aware of time, are not constrained by any behavioural consistency, "rules" of conduct or moral considerations. Signal to a narcissist that you are a willing source �?and he is bound to extract his supply from you. This is a reflex. He would have reacted absolutely the same way to any other source. If what is needed to obtain supply from you is intimations of intimacy �?he will employ them liberally.

Some Sources of Supply are ideal (from the narcissist's point of view): sufficiently intelligent, sufficiently gullible, submissive, reasonably (but not overly) inferior to the narcissist, in possession of a good memory (with which to regulate the flow of Narcissistic Supply), available but not imposing, not explicitly or overtly manipulative, interchangeable (not indispensable), not demanding (a fatalist to a degree), attractive (if the narcissist is somatic). In short: a Galathea-Pygmallion type.

But then, often suddenly and inexplicably, it is all over. The narcissist is cold, uninterested and remote.

ONE of the reasons is, as Groucho Marx put it, that the narcissist doesn't like to belong to a club which accepts him as a member. The narcissist devalues his Sources of Supply for the very qualities that made them such sources in the first place: their gullibility, their submissiveness, their (intellectual or physical) inferiority.

But there are many other reasons. For instance, the narcissist resents his dependence and by devaluing the object of dependence (his spouse, his employer, his colleague, his friend) he gets rid of the dissonance.

Yet another issue:

The narcissist perceives intimacy and sex as a threat to his uniqueness. Everyone needs sex and intimacy �?it is the great equaliser. The narcissist resents this equality. He rebels.

Sex and intimacy are usually also connected to past unresolved conflicts with important Primary Objects (parents or caregivers). They invoke these conflicts, encourage transference and provoke the onset of an approach-avoidance cycle.

Additionally, narcissists get tired of their sources. There is no mathematical formula, which governs this. It depends on numerous variables. Usually, the relationship lasts until the narcissist "gets used" to the source and its stimulating effects wear off OR until a better Source of Supply presents itself.

Does the narcissist want to be liked?

Would you wish to be liked by your television set? To the narcissist, people are mere tools, Sources of Supply. If he must be liked by them in order to secure this supply �?he strives to make sure they like him. If he can only be feared �?he makes sure they fear him. He does not really care either way as long as he is being attended to. Attention �?whether in the form of fame or infamy �?is what it's all about. His world revolves around his constant mirroring. I am seen therefore I exist, sayeth the narcissist.

But the classic narcissist is also looking to get punished. His actions are aimed to elicit social or other opprobrium and sanctions. His life is a Kafkaesque ongoing trial and the sempiternity of the trial is in itself the punishment. A punishment (a reprimand, an imprisonment, an abandonment) serves to vindicate and validate the internal damning voices of his sadistic, ideal and immature Superego (really, his parents or other caregivers). They confirm his worthlessness. They relieve him from the burden of the inner conflict he endures while successful: the conflict between the gnawing sense of guilt and shame and the need to relentlessly secure Narcissistic Supply.

Past Sources of Narcissistic Supply

One should be careful not to romanticise the narcissist. His remorse is always linked to fears of losing his sources.

Narcissists have no enemies. They have only Sources of Narcissistic Supply. An enemy means attention means supply. One holds sway over one's enemy. If the narcissist has the power to provoke emotions in you �?you are still a Source of Supply to him, regardless of WHICH emotions are provoked.

He seeks out his old Sources of Narcissistic Supply when he has absolutely no other NS Sources at his disposal. Narcissists frantically try to recycle their old and wasted sources in such a situation. But the narcissist would NOT do even this had he not felt that he could still successfully extract a modicum of NS from the old source (even to attack the narcissist is to recognise his existence and to attend to him!!!).

If you are an old Source of Narcissistic Supply, first, get over the excitement of seeing him again. It may be flattering, perhaps sexually arousing. Try to overcome these feelings.

Then, simply ignore him. Don't bother to respond in any way to his offer to get together. If he talks to you �?keep quiet, don't answer. If he calls you �?listen politely and then say goodbye and hang up. Indifference is what the narcissist cannot stand. It indicates a lack of attention and interest that constitutes the kernel of negative NS.

Much more in FAQ 64 and FAQ 25 in "Malignant Self Love �?Narcissism Revisited".

Take care.

Sam


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 Message 5 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname·TammyJo·Sent: 10/02/2004 9:07 p.m.
My best friend is my xbf best and oldest friend. She has been drafted to serve him in my absence. She is well aware that he is N/P, but like me, didn't know or see it until she saw his relationship with me. She no doubt feels trapped by the same things I did. Long friendship / loyalty, living a few feet apart, and love of his daughter who would be doomed with no one but him if one of us didn't agree to serve. Unfortunately, she still thinks that she "knows him" AND that he will be different to her because he always has. She even thinks she has some ability to humor him / handle him. As a friend not so involved, maybe she did. When he lived on the other side of the country and needed supply infrequently, it was never bad. The thing is, he has romantic fantasies about her and resents her husband and family to some degree. I don't think he wants to have her one day. I just see him focusing his needs in the way that causes him to infect everything and become angry about anything that interferes. We are back to how they behave in different ways to different people. I always saw her as someone relatively safe from harm with him. Not a target, just low level supply. Little by little, I think that's changing. Again, I don't think he is seeking a romantic involvement. I see him feeling entitled, using her for child care when he travels, entangling her in all his daily dramas more deeply. He already resented what he imagined was her conspiring with me against him and went on a mission to secure her onto his side.( In part to hurt me too.) He has almost no family and very few good friends. She has been an important and good friend for decades with no conflicts / drama. Books don't have chapters on friends next door lol. I think it's bad and insidiously on it's way to worse. I don't know. He might not even know. I want a more educated guess. I so don't want to see him turn on her and turn her life up side down. I can't stop it if I'm right so I'd love to be wrong. 
 
In all I don't know about the disorder...Is there ANY magic way she might be spared the Hell and destruction I see starting to cover her world, because she has the history with him, value to him, or anything you can think of?

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 Message 6 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 11/02/2004 11:45 a.m.
Hi, Sane Woman,
 
You ask:
 
In all I don't know about the disorder...Is there ANY magic way she might be spared the Hell and destruction I see starting to cover her world, because she has the history with him, value to him, or anything you can think of?
 
Sam:
 
The only way - magic or not - is to disengage. The No Contact Rule.
 
Narcissists don't have friends - they only have sources of supply. And, once their useful life is over, they devalue and discard them.
 
She should:
  • Refuse to accept abusive behavior. Demand reasonably predictable and rational actions and reactions. Insist on respect for your boundaries, predilections, preferences, and priorities.

  • Demand a just and proportional treatment. Reject or ignore unjust and capricious behavior.

  • If you are up to the inevitable confrontation, react in kind. Let him taste some of his own medicine.

  • Never show your abuser that you are afraid of him. Do not negotiate with bullies. They are insatiable. Do not succumb to blackmail.

  • If things get rough- disengage, involve law enforcement officers, friends and colleagues, or threaten him (legally).

  • Do not keep your abuse a secret. Secrecy is the abuser's weapon.

  • Never give him a second chance. React with your full arsenal to the first transgression.

  • Be guarded. Don't be too forthcoming in a first or casual meeting. Gather intelligence.

  • Be yourself. Don't misrepresent your wishes, boundaries, preferences, priorities, and red lines.

  • Do not behave inconsistently. Do not go back on your word. Be firm and resolute.

  • Stay away from such quagmires. Scrutinize every offer and suggestion, no matter how innocuous.

  • Prepare backup plans. Keep others informed of your whereabouts and appraised of your situation.

  • Be vigilant and doubting. Do not be gullible and suggestible. Better safe than sorry.

  • Often the abuser's proxies are unaware of their role. Expose him. Inform them. Demonstrate to them how they are being abused, misused, and plain used by the abuser.

  • Trap your abuser. Treat him as he treats you. Involve others. Bring it into the open. Nothing like sunshine to disinfest abuse.

And then, she should ...

  • Decline any and all gratuitous contact with the narcissist.
  • Do not respond to his pleading, romantic, nostalgic, flattering, or threatening e-mail messages.
  • Return all gifts he sends you.
  • Refuse him entry to your premises. Do not even respond to the intercom.
  • Do not talk to him on the phone. Hang up the minute you hear his voice while making clear to him, in a single, polite but firm, sentence, that you are determined not to talk to him.
  • Do not answer his letters.
  • Do not visit him on special occasions, or in emergencies.
  • Do not respond to questions, requests, or pleas forwarded to you through third parties.
  • Disconnect from third parties whom you know are spying on you at his behest.
  • Do not discuss him with your children.
  • Do not gossip about him.
  • Do not ask him for anything, even if you are in dire need.
  • When you are forced to meet him, do not discuss your personal affairs �?/SPAN> or his.
  • Relegate any inevitable contact with him �?/SPAN> when and where possible �?/SPAN> to professionals: your lawyer, or your accountant.

Additional advice in these two series of articles:

 
 
And here:
 

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 Message 7 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameSaneWoman1Sent: 11/02/2004 1:25 p.m.
If only Sam lol...If only :)

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 Message 8 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname·TammyJo·Sent: 12/02/2004 1:23 a.m.
As you know, I was friends with my xbf for 20 years. You can't meet a stranger with this disorder, get involved, break up, and then be friends. It just does not work. Couples with children are stuck with contact but everyone wishes they could escape it.  I crossed this bridge to lover / mate and I wonder, can anyone cross back? I take for granted that the 20 years is no different, it just doesn't work, and I've made my decisions with that in mind. I don't long for the friendship. I am faced with a lot of grief and there is no end in sight. We live 20 feet apart. He is obsessed with me and everything I do. He stalks me. No contact includes no contact with his daughter. That hurts me and it hurts her. Our poor friends live in between <sigh> New supply doesn't calm anything. No contact makes no difference.
 
If I could ask him one question it would be 'Why can't you just give it up?" All the insanity is to get me back as his mate but he knows that will never happen. I know what he is. He knows what he is. He knows I know what he is. There's a lot of supply in it for him on the friend side of the bridge. His kid is miserable and it's manifesting in all kinds of problems for him. Our friends are like hostages in it all. There is nothing in it for him if he keeps on this way.  The basic answer is "He can't" Freedom and peace for me are in just accepting that. What have I become in his head that makes me unable to cross back over that bridge... While ex lovers cannot be friends, I was a friend. It was once possible. Far more possible than being a couple was lol. 
 
If possible, I'd like to know why he can't give it up. Not why he chooses not to. Why is he unable to choose anything else?
 
 


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 Message 9 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 12/02/2004 1:47 p.m.
What have I become in his head that makes me unable to cross back over that bridge ...
 
If possible, I'd like to know why he can't give it up. Not why he chooses not to. Why is he unable to choose anything else?
 
Sam:
 
Hi, Sane Woman,
 
There is one iron-clad, inviolable, rule:
 
If you really, truly, clearly, irrevocably ignore the narcissist - he disengages swiftly and completely.
 
If he does not disengage swiftly and completely - it means only one thing:
 
That you do not really, truly, clearly, irrevocably ignore the narcissist. That you keep giving him narcissistic supply. That you keep giving him reasons to hope. That you have remained a source of narcissistuc supply.
 
These may be of help in understanding your danse macabre:
 
 
Take care.
 
Sam

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 Message 10 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname·TammyJo·Sent: 13/02/2004 1:04 a.m.
This is a bit of Question 5 cont. I'll make it 6 and 7. I have several bit questions on my way to making sense and answering the main one. I can't put this into a question or even two lol. So Sorry. Consider my other questions and the following thoughts. Toss me your thoughts or facts that can pull it together for me, finally make sense. I am not seeking to have contact or change the impossible. I will say it's bad enough to experience a relationship like this. Having such a long history before is like he was 3 people rather than the two you'd usually get <wink> It's how IM two "things" to him that drives me nuts. Maybe it was never so hot being his "friend" It sure beats this disaster lol.  I didn't mean why can't he cross the bridge and just get out lol. I want to know what about being his mate (Obsession, enemy, etc) can't be undone.  Why can I never be supply as a friend as I once was and have the huge nonsense removed. Don't get me wrong, I know he can't BE a friend. That's not the point. I, we all spent a lifetime with him in our lives. I'm stuck with him being near if I have contact or not. I have no doubt he was always selfish and a pain.  We just didn't pay it much mind nor was he a very big part of anyone's life. Supply (Important supply) was always other people in his immediate every day life, home etc. I / we were all distant extras that he ran to once in a while but didn't pose any real problem to. Then I crossed the bridge. So, I turn into focus, obsession, possession, core need and enemy because it's never enough. OK, we lived all that drama and post drama. What about the change in his view of ME during that can't be reversed? Why can't we ever go back to living our lives, being civil when forced together, giving him whatever supply kept him so content for decades before and have him go off and get a new supply for the focus spot? Do you see what I'm asking? Why am I forever stuck being whatever a mate means to them and the evil monster that wont give it to him and not able to be the supply that was once no problem in my life. Why would he not want whatever he could get?  I'm not even saying I'd do it. I just want to understand. I can't understand what I became vs what I always was in his mind/world. Yes, that is the question.  What the heck am I in there now? Lol, He could have had all kinds of attention, service, favors, etc. I didn't hate him or need to vaporize him out of my life until he went nuts because I ended the romance.  Why would someone so interested in supply / attention /gain  not want to cling to whatever he could get?  He want's the fantasy, ME for a wife, FOREVER, period. Everything that I was for a lifetime is gone. I am not ME anymore. I'm not even just a thing to him. I am ONE specific thing and it's bigger than "supply" answers for me.  That's the heart of all my questions I guess. These differences in how they seek supply of different kinds for different reasons. Why one woman is easy come, easy go, another extreme obsession.  What did he make ME in his head that even he cannot choose to reverse? I was always "a thing" and always "supply" and I see what those things mean to them. What ELSE was I / am I that I'm stuck representing to him forever now? Being supply / a thing was not the life altering nightmare that him thinking he loves me is.  It would be nice to understand what that is all about :)

(For the record, the me in his head dances with him ... I'm not required for any part of the continuation of that lol.) I'll look at the dynamics more to see if I can reduce supply even if it is imaginary to him. Thanks for the links and for thinking about him for a week. He really isn't worth my time or yours. I appreciate it just the same :)


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 Message 11 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 13/02/2004 3:12 p.m.
I want to know what about being his mate (Obsession, enemy, etc) can't be undone.  Why can I never be supply as a friend as I once was and have the huge nonsense removed.
 
What about the change in his view of ME during that can't be reversed? Why can't we ever go back to living our lives, being civil when forced together, giving him whatever supply kept him so content for decades before and have him go off and get a new supply for the focus spot?
 
Why am I forever stuck being whatever a mate means to them and the evil monster that wont give it to him and not able to be the supply that was once no problem in my life. Why would he not want whatever he could get? 
 
What the heck am I in there now?
 
Why would someone so interested in supply / attention /gain  not want to cling to whatever he could get?  He want's the fantasy, ME for a wife, FOREVER, period. Everything that I was for a lifetime is gone. I am not ME anymore. I'm not even just a thing to him. I am ONE specific thing and it's bigger than "supply" answers for me. 
 
Sam:
 
Hi, Sane Woman,
 
I am forced to repeat my previous response. It seems I didn't get through to you - perhaps because it flatters you to believe that he is obsessed with YOU and not merely with the narcissistic supply that emanates from you.
 
IF he is a narcissist - to him you are nothing more than an interchangeable prop, an instrument of gratification, a utility. He values the supply and may even be obsessed with its high quality and abundance. But he cares not one iota about you. Sources of narcissistic supply are nameless and faceless faucets to be used, abused, bled dry, and discarded offhandedly. You are no different. No one is.
 
If he keeps thinking about you in terms of a WIFE, or GIRLFRIEND, or a ROMANTIC source of supply - it is not because he is "obsessed" with you but because you keep giving him good and tantalizing reasons to do so. You keep luring him in, "seducing" him by refusing to completely eradicate him from your life, delete him from your mind, erase him from your emotions. It is you who seem to me to be obsessed with him - not the other way around.
 
Most sources of supply refuse to believe that such callousness is possible, that they are so unimportant, that they have been discarded like old socks, that they never meant anything to the narcissist. So they delude themselves into thinking that it is the narcissist who is obsessed with them. Some of them even go over the edge and develop ideas of reference. They claim that the narcissist is stalking and harassing them - when, in fact, he has long lost all interest in them:
 
 
Don't get me wrong:
 
Narcissists do stalk and harass - but they do so ONLY when this conduct extracts narcissistic supply from their victims.
 
But, there is one iron-clad, inviolable, rule:
 
If you really, truly, clearly, irrevocably ignore the narcissist - he disengages swiftly and completely.
 
If he does not disengage swiftly and completely - it means only one thing:
 
That you do not really, truly, clearly, irrevocably ignore the narcissist. That you keep giving him narcissistic supply. That you keep giving him reasons to hope. That you have remained a source of narcissistic supply:
 
 
Sorry to have been so harsh - but the reality of narcissism forces my keyboard.
 
You take care there. Move on with your life and let go.
 
Sam

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 Message 12 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameSaneWoman1Sent: 14/02/2004 5:04 p.m.
Sam,
   I still don't know why I can't be some other kind of supply. I think I never will. That's OK. It's been OK for a long time now :)
 
I gotta tell you...I am pretty sure it's THEM that has to remain obseesed to avoid facing the fact that we not only don't care about them, but would be quite pleased if they would just die already :)
 
 
You wrote:
So they delude themselves into thinking that it is the narcissist who is obsessed with them. Some of them even go over the edge and develop ideas of reference. They claim that the narcissist is stalking and harassing them - when, in fact, he has long lost all interest in them:

 

I've got a maniac that talks about me ad nauseum to anyone that will listen, begging for a way to turn it all to mean "I love him" All I do is live 20 feet away. I was here 1st lol. He moved here for the purpose of stalking me even when we were OK and I had no clue. He sits 24/7 with devices that amplify distant sounds pointed at my livingroom.He has binoculars to peer into all my windows, his second floor arranged for window living. Lives to hack my computer network. He takes every thing I do as a "message to him". If I turn my lights on/off it "means' something. If I stay home, I love him. I go to the dentist, I'm sleeping with someone / hurting him AND I "let" him see me leave so he'd know it. He runs the plates of all the cars my guest park outside. Then he makes delusions about what they are doing here that revolve around him.

I'm just living here. SO, maybe he's more than N, maybe all P maybe more things. Maybe you aren't like him. BUT, HE needs to continue this dance. If I died, he'd see it as a communication to him lol. He'd absolutely make it a drama for HIM and run to mediums trying to bug me forever.

 

Sure, I once didn't understand supply. I wanted to settle our affairs like he was human too. I got sucked into all kinds of drama and gave much supply accidentally. Even after I knew, I fell for several tempting fights and crazy making. I was guilty of much stupidity. I may have even thought his efforts were signs of affection before I saw how sick they were. That was a lifetime ago. The saga continues all on it's own. He mails me arguments including my side that he's nice enough to assume all by himself. UGH!

 

I don't want to ruin any fantasies that you value. I'm just saying maybe it's THEM with the need. All I need is for him to leave me alone, get over it and go away. What HE needs is something entirely different. If he believed I didn't give a crap, he couldn't face it. I wasn't so thrilled to discover that he didn't care about me, but it wasn't exactly the end of the world. No one said it would easy living without him. So, I'll say it, "It's easy living without him" :)

I'm not dancing...I'm not even reacting or starting legal drama. I don't even look at the scum. He's dancing with some creation of me in his demented little mind. I thought about it lot since I read your answer...looking for any way you could be right. I'd be all over it if I could change anything or my part in it :( I even wish you were. At least then, I could do something about it <sigh>  This creep wants me, or wants me dead. I think we are way beyond dancing.

 

Hugs...Really enjoyed the week...

Sane

 

 


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 Message 13 of 13 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 16/02/2004 12:31 p.m.
Hi, Sane Woman,
 
The pleasure was all mine.
 
I feel I owe you a clariofication:
 
I did not say that he is NOT stalking you. I am not in the position to know.
 
All I said is that there are two possibilities:
 
(1) He is stalking you because you keep giving him narcissistic supply (even if inadvertently).
 
OR
 
(2) It is all in your head. Having been discarded callously, you self-delude into believing that you still matter to him.
 
In all probability, it is (1).
 
Take care there.
 
Sam

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