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General : What is Love?
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Reply
 Message 1 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamewhitejade0  (Original Message)Sent: 14/11/2008 12:55 p.m.
I feel I can't move on until I can understand this.  When I say that I loved the N, I wonder what was it that I loved?
 
I was wondering what does one mean by the word "love"?  There are so many different types of loves; the love a mother has for her child (a nurturing love), the love I have for my hobbies, the love I have for people I truly resspect like Mother Theresa, and the romantic, erotic love I have for my BF etc. 
 
What I am trying to figure out, did I love what the N gave me (when he was charming) or since he often acted vulnerable and like a young boy, did I love him like a mother loves her child?  That is, did I love what he could do for me or did I love what I could do for him? Or was our relationship just in my imagination and for him it was just another form of transaction?
 
When I am finally able to figure this out I think I will be finally able to replace what I miss about him. 


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Reply
 Message 2 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamegoingnorth2Sent: 14/11/2008 3:57 p.m.
Jade, 
 
I loved him as a woman loves a man.  I loved the man he pretended to be. 
 
  • Honest
  • Caring
  • Thoughtful
  • Ethical
  • Helpful
  • Emotionally intelligent
  • My friend

I loved him in a nurturing way when he relapsed into his addiction.  

I believed that if I gave him the chance, he would overcome his selfishness and laziness.  I believed he would overcome his sense of entitlement and his grandiosity.  I believed these were all side-effects of his addictive nature. 

I believed that, in recovery, he would revert back to the man I (wrongly) believed him to be. 

Many addicts display ugly characteristics as side-effects of their addiction.  In time, they overcome these unwanted characteristics. 

Still other addicts become addicts of their nasty characteristics.  I believe that selfishness is at the top of the list of those nasty characteristics in those cases. 

Not the selfishness that we all struggle with.  The n's selfishness is different.  It's malignant, destructive selfishness.  It kills love after time.  Greed.  Wanting every penny he has to himself and for his own pleasures. 

So . . .  What is love?  When you're giving it to an n -- it's a total waste of time.  That's what it is. 

GN

 


Reply
 Message 3 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamegoingnorth2Sent: 14/11/2008 4:03 p.m.
Still other addicts become addicts BECAUSE of their nasty characteristics. 
 
I left a word out. 
 
"My household needs this paycheck.  But hey.  Cocaine would be more fun, and what the heck.  I work.  I deserve to have a good time!" 
 
 

Reply
 Message 4 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamewhitejade0Sent: 14/11/2008 8:16 p.m.
GN,
 
You articulated my thoughts also.  I also loved my N as a woman loves a man. But I think there was more and I am not sure if it wasn't my codependency, that there was not some sort of neurosis that he filled for me.  I am still trying to identify that.
 
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 5 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamegoingnorth2Sent: 15/11/2008 1:40 a.m.
Well, two books that I've read on co-dependency are by Melodie Beatty and they're entitled Co-Dependent No More and Beyond Co-Dependence. 
 
And good for you for considering what your problem might be rather focusing on what his problem is. 
 
It's just my opinion, but I think we all need to be needed.  We just need to know where to draw the line. 
 
I know I delivered one helluva narcissistic injury when I left the n.  And it hurt my heart to see him suffering.  But I had to save my own life.  And he will survive. 
 
Better that I work on myself (and you do the same) than to "hang in there," hoping for a miracle that will probably never happen. 
 
They are manipulators, and they will manipulate their way through life just fine.  I put 1000 miles between me and the n.  I won't be running into him in the grocery store.  And when the phone rings, I ignore it.  I feel better every day. 
 
GN

Reply
 Message 6 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 17/11/2008 5:06 p.m.

The Pathology of Love

By: Dr. Sam Vaknin

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Malignant Self Love - Buy the Book - Click HERE!!!

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The unpalatable truth is that falling in love is, in some ways, indistinguishable from a severe pathology. Behavior changes are reminiscent of psychosis and, biochemically speaking, passionate love closely imitates substance abuse. Appearing in the BBC series Body Hits on December 4, 2002 Dr. John Marsden, the head of the British National Addiction Center, said that love is addictive, akin to cocaine and speed. Sex is a "booby trap", intended to bind the partners long enough to bond.

Using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI), Andreas Bartels and Semir Zeki of University College in London showed that the same areas of the brain are active when abusing drugs and when in love. The prefrontal cortex - hyperactive in depressed patients - is inactive when besotted. How can this be reconciled with the low levels of serotonin that are the telltale sign of both depression and infatuation - is not known.

Other MRI studies, conducted in 2006-7 by Dr. Lucy Brown, a professor in the department of neurology and neuroscience at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, and her colleagues, revealed that the caudate and the ventral tegmental, brain areas involved in cravings (e.g., for food) and the secretion of dopamine, are lit up in subjects who view photos of their loved ones. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that affects pleasure and motivation. It causes a sensation akin to a substance-induced high.

On August 14, 2007, the New Scientist News Service gave the details of a study originally published in the Journal of Adolescent Health earlier that year. Serge Brand of the Psychiatric University Clinics in Basel, Switzerland, and his colleagues interviewed 113 teenagers (17-year old), 65 of whom reported having fallen in love recently.

The conclusion? The love-struck adolescents slept less, acted more compulsively more often, had "lots of ideas and creative energy", and were more likely to engage in risky behavior, such as reckless driving.

"'We were able to demonstrate that adolescents in early-stage intense romantic love did not differ from patients during a hypomanic stage,' say the researchers. This leads them to conclude that intense romantic love in teenagers is a 'psychopathologically prominent stage'".

But is it erotic lust or is it love that brings about these cerebral upheavals?

As distinct from love, lust is brought on by surges of sex hormones, such as testosterone and estrogen. These induce an indiscriminate scramble for physical gratification. In the brain, the hypothalamus (controls hunger, thirst, and other primordial drives) and the amygdala (the locus of arousal) become active. Attraction transpires once a more-or-less appropriate object is found (with the right body language and speed and tone of voice) and results in a panoply of sleep and eating disorders.

A recent study in the University of Chicago demonstrated that testosterone levels shoot up by one third even during a casual chat with a female stranger. The stronger the hormonal reaction, the more marked the changes in behavior, concluded the authors. This loop may be part of a larger "mating response". In animals, testosterone provokes aggression and recklessness. The hormone's readings in married men and fathers are markedly lower than in single males still "playing the field".

Still, the long-term outcomes of being in love are lustful. Dopamine, heavily secreted while falling in love, triggers the production of testosterone and sexual attraction then kicks in.

Helen Fisher of Rutger University suggests a three-phased model of falling in love. Each stage involves a distinct set of chemicals. The BBC summed it up succinctly and sensationally: "Events occurring in the brain when we are in love have similarities with mental illness".

Moreover, we are attracted to people with the same genetic makeup and smell (pheromones) of our parents. Dr Martha McClintock of the University of Chicago studied feminine attraction to sweaty T-shirts formerly worn by males. The closer the smell resembled her father's, the more attracted and aroused the woman became. Falling in love is, therefore, an exercise in proxy incest and a vindication of Freud's much-maligned Oedipus and Electra complexes.

Writing in the February 2004 issue of the journal NeuroImage, Andreas Bartels of University College London's Wellcome Department of Imaging Neuroscience described identical reactions in the brains of young mothers looking at their babies and in the brains of people looking at their lovers.

"Both romantic and maternal love are highly rewarding experiences that are linked to the perpetuation of the species, and consequently have a closely linked biological function of crucial evolutionary importance" - he told Reuters.

This incestuous backdrop of love was further demonstrated by psychologist David Perrett of the University of St Andrews in Scotland. The subjects in his experiments preferred their own faces - in other words, the composite of their two parents - when computer-morphed into the opposite sex.


This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

Click HERE to buy the print edition from Barnes and Noble or HERE to buy it from Amazon or HERE to buy it from The Book Source

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Click HERE to buy the ENTIRE SERIES of eight electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships


Body secretions play a major role in the onslaught of love. In results published in February 2007 in the Journal of Neuroscience, researchers at the University of California at Berkeley demonstrated convincingly that women who sniffed androstadienone, a signaling chemical found in male sweat, saliva, and semen, experienced higher levels of the hormone cortisol. This results in sexual arousal and improved mood. The effect lasted a whopping one hour.

Still, contrary to prevailing misconceptions, love is mostly about negative emotions. As Professor Arthur Aron from State University of New York at Stonybrook has shown, in the first few meetings, people misinterpret certain physical cues and feelings - notably fear and thrill - as (falling in) love. Thus, counterintuitively, anxious people - especially those with the "serotonin transporter" gene - are more sexually active (i.e., fall in love more often).

Obsessive thoughts regarding the Loved One and compulsive acts are also common. Perception is distorted as is cognition. "Love is blind" and the lover easily fails the reality test. Falling in love involves the enhanced secretion of b-Phenylethylamine (PEA, or the "love chemical") in the first 2 to 4 years of the relationship.

This natural drug creates an euphoric high and helps obscure the failings and shortcomings of the potential mate. Such oblivion - perceiving only the spouse's good sides while discarding her bad ones - is a pathology akin to the primitive psychological defense mechanism known as "splitting". Narcissists - patients suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder - also Idealize romantic or intimate partners. A similar cognitive-emotional impairment is common in many mental health conditions.

The activity of a host of neurotransmitters - such as Dopamine, Adrenaline (Norepinephrine), and Serotonin - is heightened (or in the case of Serotonin, lowered) in both paramours. Yet, such irregularities are also associated with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and depression.

It is telling that once attachment is formed and infatuation gives way to a more stable and less exuberant relationship, the levels of these substances return to normal. They are replaced by two hormones (endorphins) which usually play a part in social interactions (including bonding and sex): Oxytocin (the "cuddling chemical") and Vasopressin. Oxytocin facilitates bonding. It is released in the mother during breastfeeding, in the members of the couple when they spend time together - and when they sexually climax. Viagra (sildenafil) seems to facilitate its release, at least in rats.

Love, in all its phases and manifestations, is an addiction, probably to the various forms of internally secreted norepinephrine, such as the aforementioned amphetamine-like PEA. Love, in other words, is a form of substance abuse. The withdrawal of romantic love has serious mental health repercussions.

A study conducted by Dr. Kenneth Kendler, professor of psychiatry and director of the Virginia Institute for Psychiatric and Behavioral Genetics, and others, and published in the September 2002 issue of Archives of General Psychiatry, revealed that breakups often lead to depression and anxiety. Other, fMRI-based studies, demonstrated how the insular cortex, in charge of experiencing pain, became active when subjects viewed photos of former loved ones.

Still, love cannot be reduced to its biochemical and electrical components. Love is not tantamount to our bodily processes - rather, it is the way we experience them. Love is how we interpret these flows and ebbs of compounds using a higher-level language. In other words, love is pure poetry.


Also Read

The Inverted Narcissist

The Myth of Mental Illness

Sex or Gender

The Narcissist's Family

The Roots of Pedophilia

The Natural Roots of Sexuality

Parenting - The Irrational Vocation

Ethical Relativism and Absolute Taboos

The Offspring of Aeolus: On the Incest Taboo


Copyright Notice

This material is copyrighted. Free, unrestricted use is allowed on a non commercial basis.
The author's name and a link to this Website must be incorporated in any reproduction of the material for any use and by any means.


Go Back to Home Page!

Frequently Asked Questions - Pathological Narcissism

Excerpts from Archives of the Narcissism List

The Narcissism List Home Page

Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited

World in Conflict and Transition

Internet: A Medium or a Message?

Write to me: [email protected]  or [email protected]

 

 

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Reply
 Message 7 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameWhatjusthappened0Sent: 18/11/2008 12:43 a.m.
Who knows what love is? What we thought is an illusion.
 
I am just tired. How many of us say they can't change, yet, I sit here at age 40 and pray I don't wake up. My heart aches for my DD, but, other than that..nobody gives a chit about me and never has.
 
I'm having a tough time at work with a new tyrant boss after my old one has moved on to another department and with which we had much mutual respect.
 
I don't recall ever feeling this low, but, I assume this is yet another fun twist of hell in addition to the 7 years I invested with n. I just want to sleep for a month and start over, I just can't.
 
In bad shape and will just go to bed as it's of no use. I can carry on another day because you would understand had you met my DD.........
 
 

Reply
 Message 8 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamenatman21Sent: 18/11/2008 2:03 p.m.
This is what I wrote for assignment in our "Rebuilders" class to answer the ?, "What is love?"
 

Ahh……�?/B>..What is love? <o:p></o:p>

When I say I love you what do I mean?<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

For far too long I used the word to describe<o:p></o:p>

 a feeling I thought I had for someone, <o:p></o:p>

perhaps describing more my longing to<o:p></o:p>

 feel connected than the connection itself.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

And that is the core of my current understanding.<o:p></o:p>

 Love to me is the connection. And without <o:p></o:p>

two people holding their respective space to <o:p></o:p>

sustain the connection, there is no love. <o:p></o:p>

Love is how we communicate and express <o:p></o:p>

that mutual space we create together.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

By gesture, tone, word and deed <o:p></o:p>

we live out the partnership <o:p></o:p>

and honor with our fullest being <o:p></o:p>

the nebulous, but powerful bonds <o:p></o:p>

that a mutual loving interaction builds.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

I can care for you by myself. <o:p></o:p>

But I cannot love you without full, open, honest, <o:p></o:p>

naked, and engaged emotional vulnerability, <o:p></o:p>

mutually sustained, honored and expressed.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Where we completely and fully meet <o:p></o:p>

is where love resides <o:p></o:p>

and in no other place.

 

 

-Natman<o:p></o:p>


Reply
 Message 9 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamewhitejade0Sent: 20/11/2008 5:05 a.m.
Whatjusthappened,
 
To me it sounds like you are feeling depressed and overwhelmed. 
 
I think we go through that as the aftermath of knowing an N.  It sucks, it really does.
 
One step at a time, I found that was all I could manage for a long time, one step at a time. But after awhile those tiny steps add up and you're on your way.

Reply
 Message 10 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamewhitejade0Sent: 20/11/2008 5:17 a.m.
Natman,
 
Very beautifully expressed.
 
I also think that "mutually sustained" love is ideal.  I wonder what to call it when only one person loves?  If it is romantic love I guess it would be unrequited love... a longing for it to be mutual.
 
But then I still have trouble with that.  Suppose a person "falls in love" with someone unavailable, someone who already loves another, someone who is not capable of feeling love for another person, or someone who just doesn't want them for whatever reason.  Is that desire rather than love?
 
I find this term "love" an overly used and ambiguous phrase... yet it is associated with so much happiness, so much hope.  In the name of "love" people have made some phenomenal things to happen. 
 
I want to love, yet I am afraid to love. I feel confused.
 

Reply
 Message 11 of 11 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamemisspleaserSent: 20/11/2008 11:05 a.m.
You were so attached to him because you are only human and you really do need to feel excepted and loved. All I can say from my own experience is that they dont have any love to give you. I believe we are searching for that thing in them that we never really got from childhood or infancy. ITs called anxious attachment. From what I have read about attachment problems with the mother, causes most future relationship problems we may encounter in life. I am no expert but have really been searching into this to help heal all those old wounds. Its no ones fault. Not everyone grows up in a family feeling 100% loved and securely attached. I feel this is the root to my problem as I cant put it to anything else. Family is everything. Its just a matter of unlearning those anxious, clingy, addictive behaviours that never really got us love that we desperatly needed.

I found this out by reading the book "Anxious to Please"
A lot of relationship patterns begin when we are children and even earlier



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