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| | | From: themom (Original Message) | Sent: 28/10/2008 10:08 p.m. |
I am new to this forum, and I am at my wits end. I have a 12 1/2 year old son, whose father is a classic NPD/Psychopathic personality - I realized this too late, obviously. I left him(with my child) just before my son's 3rd birthday.He has always been "spirited" and I had a few behavior problems with him when he was younger, but I guess I sort of chalked it up to the stress we went through when I left his father and had to live in a shelter for a few months. His "spiritedness" never went away, but we were able to get through the serious behavior problems as he got older. Kindergarten was tough, and he was tested for ADHD, etc at that point. They determined that although he was energetic, he did not have ADHD, and could not really figure out what the deal was with him. He got through the serious behavior problems in grade school, and he was very well liked by the staff by the time he finished grade school. I will admit that I have not been as harsh of a disciplinarian that perhaps I should have been. Most people tell me I am way too easy. I let a lot of little things go because I knew if I didn't pick my battles, everything would turn into a war. So, I saved the punishments and discipline for things that I considered to be warranted of it. I guess I felt if I didn't pick my battles, my son would hate me because I would always be punishing him, and never just enjoying him and loving him. He very quickly learned how to push the boundaries and push my buttons. As he has gotten older, he has gotten manipulative and argumentative to the point where I have to physically force him to do things. For example, the other night, I told him to take a shower, and it turned into an hour long battle, complete with me picking him up and carrying him to the bathroom at least twice (mind you he is TWELVE and I am only 4'11). The entire time he is yelling, kicking, screaming at the top of his lungs, calling me names, throwing things at me, and threatening to call 911 on ME if I touch him. He wanted to eat (he had dinner a half hour before) and watch a movie, I told him he could do that when he was done with his shower. He finally grabbed an apple from the kitchen and went into the bathroom saying - "I'm gonna eat, now was that so hard??" My roommate (who was hiding in the other room during the fiasco) told me after the fight, my son was sitting in the bathroom literally laughing at me. His laugh is another thing, it's almost demonic, and he will laugh uncontrollably, and very loudly, at inappropriate times. The greatest punishment for him is if I take away his cell phone - which is his greatest obsession, but when I try, I have to physically wrestle him to get it from him. Then he will act loving and kind and respectful - until he gets it back. But, if he doesn't get it back when I say he will (if I say I'm taking it, we argue until I give him a definate date that he will get it back if he behaves), then all hell breaks loose again. Everytime I try to tell him to do something, he tries to contridict me, argue with me, and manipulate my words to make it sound like I am the bad person. In the above fight, he is still convinced that I was wrong, because I wouldn't let him eat. Every day I tell him the same things (pick up the living room, take out the trash, do your homework), and it just goes nowhere except straight to hell. He will say "not right now, or I don't want to", and if I push the issue, threaten to take away his phone or his game, then we get into a full blown fight, which he always laughs about in the end. He is very well mannered for everybody else - his friends mothers all adore him, and tell me how helpful and respectful he is when he is at their house. He is popular and doing well at school, and has a ton of friends. Obviously, sending him to his father is not an option - his dad would probably say "he is better than everyone else, just get the hell out of his way, and let him do what he needs to do." I am a single parent, and unfortunately, he really hasn't had a good strong male role model in his life. I'm sure that is part of the problem, and my fault for being too picky, and not wanting to have another bad relationship. I really don't know what to do. Everything about dealing with an NPD/Psychopath says "run away quickly and never look back." And I've read that NPD/Psychopathic disorders can't be effectively treated. That's fine for an adult relationship, But, I can't just give up hope on my child. Has anybody else had to deal with this? |
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Hi, I haven't had to deal with this however I guess my suggestion would be to go and talk to a child psychologist. How is he doing at school now? Have his teachers said anything? I'm sorry for what you are going though. This must be very hurtful and disturbing.I hope that someone else may have some answers. Had Enough |
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| | From:  femfree | Sent: 29/10/2008 6:17 p.m. |
Hi themom - we have information for you So, your son has a cell phone ???? Whose idea was that? sheesh!! As you are trying to manage this child on your own, then I recommend you get some help from your local menal health association. I don't see NPD in him - just usual teenager stuff and, an enabling mother. At the age of 12 he knows how to take a shower. |
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| | | From: themom | Sent: 29/10/2008 11:12 p.m. |
I've joined the group you linked, and have reposted in that forum as well. Yes, he does have a cell phone. I work a full time job and we don't have a home phone, so the idea of the cell phone was designed to make a way for communication while I am at work, and to have him call me when he leaves for school and gets home, or if he is doing something after school - which he does with no problem. And, in response to the previous poster - he is doing very well in school, he gets good grades (A's and B's in advanced level classes), and is very popular and well-liked. He participates in classes and clubs and plays sports usually after school, and has no problems there either. It's after I get home (about 1/2 hour - 1 hour after he does)that the problems start. The benefit of the cell phone is that it does give me some leverage for discipline by taking it away. That is the thing that affects him the most and gets the point across quicker than anything. I hesitate to forbid him from doing his school events because I feel better about knowing that he is in a safe environment doing something productive, rather than sitting at home by himself, or wandering around somewhere. Taking the phone away permanently would work for about a week before he became completely incorridgable and uncontrollable, and then I would also lose the control of being able to check on him during the day. As far as "enabling him" - I do discipline him, and that's what causes the fights. As long as he thinks something is his idea, and he is in control, then he's fine. He has the attitude that the world "owes" him something, and that he is invincible - not as a normal teenager, but to an extreme level, which is a classic symptom of NPD. I do admit that there have been minor issues that I let go because I really honestly did not feel that it was worth a knock-down drag out fight for, and everytime I tell him to do ANYTHING (eat your dinner, pick up your clothes PLEASE -it is a major battle unless he is allowed to do it when HE wants and in HIS own way. If I tell him to take out the trash(for example), he will do it without arguing IF he is allowed to decide when, or he will only take out one bag instead of two with no problem, but tell him to take out the second bag and we're off to the races again ("no, I don't want to" or "not right now".) The rule is that if I have to tell him to do it, then he is to do it when I tell him, not when and how he decides, and that's when the fight starts. He will look at me and say "rules are made to be broken - and you will NEVER break my spirit!" His dad is the same way, I remember one time he didn't pay the electric bill, and then got mad at the power company for turning off the lights. He told them "I will pay when I feel like it" - and they flipped the switch...go figure. Point is - to this day it is their fault for turning it off, not his for not paying, because they should have known he would pay it when he wanted to, and not before then. As he always says "people don't tell me what to do, I tell them!". This is what NPD/P Personalities truly believe to be the way it should be. But, back to the subject. When my son was in grade school he would try to push the rules because he would do great work, but only if he could stand at his desk instead of sit. If they tried to force him to sit, he'd end up in the principal's office, and I'd get a phone call to pick him up. He did get a teacher that would "accomodate" him after a while, and as soon as he realized he "won", there were no other problems in school, and he sits at a desk with no problems now. It's all about him doing it HIS way. If he chooses to sit, then he has no problem sitting. Another reason I think he is NPD and/or P. BUT if there is something he can gain from doing it - you don't even have to ask. He actually did the laundry without being told the other day because his favorite hoodie was dirty and he wanted to wear it the next day, and I wasn't home to wash it. Of course, he just washed HIS clothes - but, hey,,,,at least I didn't have to. And if I would have said "why didn't you do the rest of the clothes?" - here we go again. So, instead I have to listen to him brag about how great he is because he washed his clothes and say "good job" - another one of those things that got "let go." Because if I said anything about the other clothes - even in an offhanded, nice way, like, "thank you for doing that, maybe next time you could do a full load" - it becomes "look, now you're mad at me for doing the laundry." and he flies off into a rage. I am the BAD guy for questioning him when he does something good. That's the manipulation game. We've been battling for years, but it has definitely gotten worse as he is hitting puberty. So, you can call it enabling if you want, but I think if I was enabling him, I would simply take his dads advice and "just get the hell out of his way and let him do what he wants" without trying to correct him, teach him, or set any boundaries. People that have seen his fits are the first ones to say "that is not normal". And, yes, at the age of 12 he does know how to take a shower. That is sort of the point. It's not that he doesn't know any better - he does know better, and he simply "gets off" by antagonizing me to the brink of insanity, unless it's his idea to do it, and he's not being told. Unfortunately, if I don't tell him to do it, he will go for a week or longer without taking one. So, in a sense he is in control because he knows I am going to tell him to take one, and then he has a reason to antagonize me. He was more than happy to take the shower, as long as he got what he wanted first, because he couldn't LOSE. That's what makes me think he is NPD/P. Anyway, thank you for your comments. |
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| | | From: Kitcat08 | Sent: 29/10/2008 11:57 p.m. |
I think you might consider "Tough Love". There are groups formed around this idea, books written about it. I noticed you were quite defensive about the idea of "enabling" him. Denial perhaps? When my son was 12, our family had a cell phone. He took it when we needed to communicate with him. Otherwise, it belonged to all of us. It was not in his possession 24/7. Later, his father(my ex) got him a cell phone of his own, and I was totally hands off. He lost 2 cell phones, but I was hands off. Not my phone, not my problem. Boundaries always come with consequences. "If you don't take a shower, you don't get to go out to dinner" (or I refuse to sit beside you at the table, therefore refuse to serve dinner). I would never wrestle the kid. Just let him suffer the natural and logical consequences. The kids at school will help you take care of this problem in time. My son is not perfect. However, he started doing his own laundry at 14. I started doing my own laundry at 13. Because parents are not mind readers, and kids know what they want to wear, and washing machines are so easy to operate, kids can do their own laundry easily. Washing my son's clothes became a favor to him. I totally get pulling out your hair, and your son does not sound completely "normal" in the respect that he digs his heals in and absolutely refuses to cooperate. These disorders are hereditary, but it takes the gene combined with the upbringing/parenting that causes full blown disorders. This I have been told by mental health professionals. Not one of us is a perfect parent. Cause it's a hard job. We bring our own baggage into it, and we don't want to coddle our kids, but we don't want to hurt them either. They don't come with instruction manuals. I look at most everything as "boundaries and consequences". The boundary is taking out the trash. What should the consequence be? Make it fitting. If you don't take out the trash, I can't make dinner and cause more trash. If you don't take a shower, I don't want to be near a boy who smells like BO. If you don't pick up your clothes, then they won't get cleaned. Etc. And reward good behavior with some praise. "I love how you did your homework without being told". I love that you get As and Bs in school. I love having a smart son. Watch him shine and thrive by being noticed for good stuff. And then at this age, they love to have their opinions taken into acct. Give them choices. Potatoes or Rice. Trash or Dishes. McCain or Obama. Parenting can be fun. Find the fun and build on it. |
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He may also be genuinely hurt by feeling like what he does do is never good enough for you. If, every time he does something without being forced to, you say "Great! But..." then he will legitimately feel inadequate! Whether he's 5 or 12 or 25. I would suggest the following: 1. Do not argue with him. If you tell him to take a shower and he won't, or you tell him to take out the trash and he won't, FINE!. Let HIM deal with the consequences of not taking a shower, having a rancid-smelling kitchen, etc. It will not kill him to miss a shower for a few days, and he's getting to the point where he'll want to smell good for the ladies anyway. If he won't take out the trash, then set the trashcan inside his room and go on about your business. Do not argue with him, do not threaten him. He is old enough to own his behavior, and if he is choosing not to shower or take out the trash, then he is also choosing to stink, and live with trash in his room. --Make sure you talk to his teacher and say, we are having problems X and Y at home, and I am taking a new approach.. so if he comes to school smelling funny for a few days, I want you to konw in advance it's not neglect, I am changing my parenting strategy short-term. .....Now, if at the end of two weeks he would rather sleep with trashbags and smell like a homeless person, than take out the trash, shower, and do his laundry, THEN you know something is deeply wrong with your son and counseling is in order! 2. Praise him when he does something good, and DON'T qualify the praise! In child-rearing, they always say give five positives for every one negative. If as you say, you are in a habit of saying "Thanks for doing your laundry, but why didn't you do the rest??" then your ratio is 1:1 and he will truly feel rebellious & angry for not being validated. Compliment him endlessly on his schoolwork. Acknowledge it when he does shower. Tell him how handsome he looks in a clean outfit. A 12yo is still a child and he still needs lots of love and validation from Mommy. 3. Give him a timeline... Tell him at 2 pm, "Honey, you have until 8 pm tonight to take the trash out." Remind him again at 5, and at 6:30 and at 7:45. It is win-win. He doesn't feel like he has to drop everything and do it immediately (and except for in extreme cases, Mom, you really don't need that from him. HOnestly, you sound just as stubborn as he is.) And you still get the trash taken out. Hopefully. But if he doesn't take it out, then set it in his room! He doesn't have to do your laundry, but make him do his own. 4. You seem extremely rule-oriented. Thing about kids is, they all go through a stage where they want to be the opposite of their parents. The more you try to impose your will, the more he will fight it. The strategies above will give you a break from feeling like a dictator, and will give him the chance to succeed or fail, without judgement either way. 5. I have a child who often laughs a very nervous, weird laugh when she is being spanked or gotten onto. This is a nervous reaction. It does NOT mean he was feeding off the argument. It could simply mean he is nervous & upset and those feelings are coming out in a strange way. Hell, I had a laughing fit at the altar, they had to wait 5 minutes to start my wedding ceremony (to the N) because I started laughing uncontrollably. I had to sit down, in my wedding dress, cuz I couldn't stop laughing! Laughter does NOT mean you feel great, necessarily. You DO need to acknowledge his accomplishments you DO need to let him brag, Mom! That is not a bad thing!! He does not feel validation from you! He's a CHILD! It is kind of a big deal for most 12 year olds to do their own laundry, honey. The more praise you give him, the more he will want to please you. |
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I just read your post and wanted to offer you some encouragement. It's a tough road being a mother to a N child. One thing you do have on your side is time. Time passes very quickly. So whatever phase your N child is in know that it will pass very quickly as in retrospect all time does. Another thing you mentioned is that all the other mothers think highly of your son. This is not unusual, because a N will act completely different around their scapegoat. Be glad that he saves his bad behavior for the privacy of his own home. Being raised by a N, when I had my own children I needed to "make up" for what was done to me (some how trying to heal myself) by overindulging in my children. As an adult my N child is an overachiever and has done very well. She treats me different from everyone else. She can be very emotionally abusive. It's really off the wall. I know her well. When she starts to "act up", I simply respond with it is time for you to go back to your own home now. She does not hold a grudge. So there is a good chance the next visit may be nice. Even tho she uses me as her scapegoat, she trusts and confides in me because she knows I am loyal and love her. It is a very complicated relationship. I believe that if you "mother from the heart", and seek God out at the start of every day you will have victory. I know it is a hard road. With a N child you have to be able to "detach" when they start to scapegoat you. My biggest obsticle for my N child was that I did not want her to make mistakes that could put her in harm's way. N have a "sence of intitlement" that can get them in real trouble out in the world. I can not protect her from herself. It is good that you "pick your battles", otherwise you would be miserable. Make sure you take good care of yourself. Take it one day at a time. Find pleasure in "simple" things. My life is based on what Christ did for me on the cross. I walk in great victory. Also keep in mind in sharing your story know that you are your child's mother. It is wonderful to be able to get other peoples' take on things. But ultimately you know what is best for your own family as long as you "mother from the heart". I wish you the very best. |
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Hi there,
I have kids and also an XN....
I don't think N's are just born that way...No way...It has to do with their up bringing...not learning certain things,not growing etc...You son I would say just enjoys pushing the boundreies...Like all kids do...some are better at doing it than others....I think that all teenagers have a bit of NPD in them at some stage...It's part of growing...
Have you ever had his IQ tested..My son was very very frusting...would argue just for the sake of it...this was when he was 8 mind you...Fine at school and with other people but a real "shit" when with me...and that was because he was comfy being like that around me...I wasn't going to reject him...It turned out he was bored at school...This was in primary..I always knew he was "different" even as a little one...He is gifted...I got his IQ tested it came back at 157...at the age of 8....He was bored...and needed stimulation...he got it...and he settled down...He is now 16 and a fantastic young man...He is very very acedemic...and has started 3 uni courses while at school....He can still be a "shit" at home....Like all teenagers.....
Try as many options with him as you can...Please Don't think he has NPD....Why would he?Just because his Father does...I'm sorry but I really feel it's to do with your upbringing as a child...I don't think you are just born with it....My thoughts anyway....Good luck... |
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Hi Themom,
I am completely new to this, so cannot really advise too much on NPD, but can relate to a feisty determined child, and mine's 5! Very similar to yours when she's in that kind of mood, and like you, pick battles and wars.
Don't really have any advice, other than what another poster said, if he doesn't want to shower, let him smell, if he doesn't take out the trash, then you don't empty his bin in his bedroom. Give him huge timelines but tell him they must be done within those timelines - give the responsibility to him.
Being a single mother means that a 12 year old should be helping with the laundry, my 5 year old does!
And in the UK, many 12 year olds have mobiles (cell phones) so I don't personally think that's a point where he is spoilt.
As I said, not much advice, just wanted you to know that the other side of the world, there are other single mums pulling their hair out too. :-)
Clare |
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| | | From: femfree | Sent: 9/11/2008 2:31 a.m. |
Hi themom. Why not call his bluff and refuse to give him his payoff which is getting a reaction out of you and your compliance with his demands by his refusal to shower. Instead, try some reverse psychology and tell him not to shower and ignore him. I think as long as he is able to push your buttons using this he will. my thoughts. |
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| | | From: femfree | Sent: 9/11/2008 2:32 a.m. |
BTW, please join us as our MSN site message board will be closing in a few day.s Cheers! |
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Oh, my heart to you, the mom!
I am going to suggest some books here. They changed my life dramatically. Truly a before and after experience here.
First I read was Liberated Parents, Liberated Children by Farber and Mazlich. Then I went through the workbook "How to talk so your children will listen, how to listen so your children will talk" (Same folk)
Then the source of their knowledge, they took a workshop from this kind man, Dr. Haim Ginot and I read Between Parent and Child.
I then read anything I could get my hands on by these guys.
I worked with special needs children, adults, even the criminally insane. These books turned me into a behavioral "expert" even though I repeatedly asked others to just read the darned things!!
Example...one woman/client in a center was known for being very stuck in her ways. I barely knew her. She had a dental appt. and had gotten on the bus and refused to get off.
The supervisor came up to my room and asked me to go get her off the bus.
I went downstairs and the staff was there yelling, "GET OFF THE BUS" and talking about having to drag her off.
First tool was to speak softly so the other person has to engage with you. I walked to the side of the bus and said softly, "M, you have a dental appointment."
Other tool is you allow the other person the dignity of making their own conclusions.
She said, "What? I do? I need to get off the bus then. These damn fools. Why didn't anyone tell me?"
Simple shifts making huge differences.
One miracle, same center, had a gent who was non verbal.
Also had a supervisor who was officious and just plain mean at times.
She said something to R. He was furious. He came into our crowded room and knocked over a metal shelf that was VERY full.
People were cyring and screaming. I put paper and markers and crayons on the table quietly. Everyone stopped to see what I was doing. I said, "I want you to draw a picture right now about how you feel."
The first person drew a picture, it was awesome, she was inside a bunch of bright, concentric circles. She was trying to cover her head. But, there were hearts that came out of her and she drew them going to R.
R. saw that and started crying. For the first time ever documented, he spoke. He said, "I love you, K" and they cried and hugged and she said she so understood why he was angry, she would be too, but that scared her so much.
He went around and looked at the pictures and talked about them. It got to where we were honestly laughing. The feeling of love in that room!!
We all cleaned up. After that, R. would look out for someone about to lose their temper and he would go talk to them. It was so beautiful.
Just a simple shift. The old me would have jumped on R. Look at the miracle I would have lost!!
I can't promise this will help you, but it sure can't hurt!!
HUGS and so much Empathy!!
Wolfies |
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