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| (1 recommendation so far) | Message 1 of 9 in Discussion |
| From: ·TammyJo· (Original Message) | Sent: 15/02/2004 10:31 p.m. |
Congratulations to Melody, who is this week's case study! As always, it should be very interesting! I'm an adult child of narcissistic and emotionally abusive parents, who willingly allowed (covertly) my sister and I to be molested by my paternal grandfather. I have a daughter who is 27, now. As a result of a major conlfict between myself and my parents, orchestrated by my parents, my daughter no longer sees me or talks to me. I have invented the phrase " emotional molestation" to describe the mind manipulations, they've used on her to achieve this end. I feel my parents are sending me a message replaying an old unresolved conflict, which is, If I thought they were such bad parents, for not protecting me from the sexual abuse, just what am I going to do to protect my daughter from their "emotional molestation" of her. My first question is am I right? Are my parents unconsiously replaying an old unresolved (for them)conflict? |
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| | From: samvak | Sent: 16/02/2004 3:56 p.m. |
Dear Melody, I am in the unenviable position of a narcissist having to admit his ignorance...:o)) I am not qualified to discuss inter-generational sexual abuse or incest (emotional or physical). My knowledge extends to personality disorders (with emphasis on Cluster B - narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, and antisocial). I mention incest and molestation (sketchily) here: But I am really very far from claiming any kind of authority or privileged knowledge regarding this topic. Sorry ...:o(( Sam |
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That's Ok, Dr. Vaknin, you've already helped me out with a wealth of information, these last couple of years. I just wondered what you might think. Thanks for everything, Melody |
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Dr. Sam, Here is another question that Melody came up with: How much of a role do you think guilt and shame play in the emotional demisemy parents seem to be exibiting, in their later years? |
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| (1 recommendation so far) | Message 5 of 9 in Discussion |
| From: samvak | Sent: 17/02/2004 12:22 p.m. |
Dear Melody, I am not sure I understand the question, so allow me to discuss shame and guilt in narcissists in general. I postulated the existence of a Grandiosity Gap. Plainly put, it is the difference between self-image, how the narcissist percives himself and contravening cues from reality. The greater the conflict between grandiosity and reality, the bigger the gap. There are two varieties of shame: The Narcissistic Shame �?which is the experience of the Grandiosity Gap (and its affective correlate). Subjectively it is experienced as a pervasive feeling of worthlessness (the regulation of self-worth is the crux of pathological narcissism), "invisibleness" and ridiculousness. The patient feels pathetic and foolish, deserving of mockery and humiliation. Narcissists adopt all kinds of defences to counter narcissistic shame. They develop addictive or impulsive behaviours. They deny, withdraw, rage, engage in the compulsive pursuit of some kind of (unattainable, of course) perfection. They display haughtiness and exhibitionism and so on. All these defences are employed primitively (or are primitive, like splitting) and involve projective identification. The second type of shame is Self-Related Shame. It is a result of the gap between grandiosity (or Ego Ideal) and self or Ego. This is a well-known concept of shame and it has been treated widely in the works of Freud [1914], Reich [1960], Jacobson [1964], Kohut [1977], Kingston [1983], Spero [1984] and Morrison [1989]. A clear distinction has to be drawn between GUILT (or control) �?related shame and conformity-related shame. Guilt is an "objectively" determinable philosophical entity (given relevant knowledge regarding societal and cultural make up). It is context-dependent. It is the derivative of an underlying assumption by OTHERS that a Moral Agent does control certain aspects of the world. This assumed control by the agent imputes guilt to it, if it acts in a manner incommensurate with prevailing mores, or refrains from acting in a manner commensurate with them. So, shame here is a result of the ACTUAL occurrence of AVOIDABLE outcomes which imputes guilt to a Moral Agent. We must distinguish GUILT from GUILT FEELINGS, though. Guilt feelings (and the attaching shame) can be ANTICIPATORY. A Moral Agent assumes, similarly, that it has control over certain aspects of the world. But then, it is able to predict the outcomes of INTENTIONS and feels guilt and shame as a result. Guilt Feelings are composed of a component of Fear and a component of Anxiety. Fear is related to the external, objective, observable consequences of actions or inaction by the Moral Agent. Anxiety has to do with INNER consequences. It is ego-dystonic and threatens the identity of the Moral Agent because being Moral is an important part of it. The internalisation of guilt feelings leads to a shame reaction. So, shame has to do with guilty feelings, not with GUILT, per se. These guilty feelings are a composite of reactions and anticipated reactions of others to external outcomes such as waste, disappointment of others, failure (the FEAR component) plus the reactions and anticipated reactions of the Moral Agent itself to internal outcomes (helplessness or loss of presumed control, narcissistic injuries �?the ANXIETY component). There is also conformity-related shame. It has to do with the feeling of "otherness". It similarly involves a component of fear (of the reactions of others to one's otherness) and of anxiety (of the reactions of one to one's own otherness). Guilt-related shame is more connected to self-related shame (perhaps through a psychic construct akin to the Superego). On the other hand, conformity-related shame is more typical of narcissistic shame. But, more generally, narcissists impute guilt to others: Self-flagellation is a characteristic of those who choose to live with a narcissist (and a choice it is). Constant guilt feelings, self-reproach, self-recrimination and, thus �?self-punishment typify the relationships formed between the sadist-narcissist and the masochistic-dependent mate or partner. The narcissist is sadistic because he was forced into expressing his own guilt and self-reproach in this manner. It is his Superego, which is unpredictable, capricious, arbitrary, judgemental, cruel, and self-annihilating (suicidal). Externalising these internal traits is a way of alleviating internal conflicts and fears generated by this inner turmoil. The narcissist projects his civil war and drags everyone around him into a swirl of bitterness, suspiciousness, meanness, aggression and pettiness. His life is a reflection of his psychological landscape: barren, paranoiac, tormented, guilt ridden. He feels compelled to do unto others what he perpetrates unto himself. He gradually transforms all around him into replicas of his conflictive, punishing personality structures. Some narcissists are more subtle than others. They disguise their sadism. For instance, they "educate" their nearest and dearest (for their sake, as they present it). This “education�?is compulsive, obsessive, incessantly, harshly and unduly critical. Its effect is to erode the subject, to humiliate, to create dependence, to intimidate, to restrain, to control, to paralyse. The victim internalises the endless preaching and criticism and makes them his own. She begins to see justice where there is only twisted logic based on crooked assumptions. She begins to self-punish, to withhold, to request approval prior to any action, to forgo her preferences and priorities, to erase her own identity �?hoping to thus avoid the excruciating pains of the narcissist's destructive analyses. Other narcissists are less sophisticated and they use all manner of abuse to domesticate their kin and partners in life. This spans physical violence, verbal violence (during intensive rage attacks), psychological abuse, brutal "honesty", sick or offending humour, and so on. But both categories of narcissists employ very simple deceptive mechanisms to achieve their goals. One thing must be made clear: this is not a well thought out, previously planned campaign by the average narcissist. His behaviour is dictated by forces that he cannot master. Most of the time he is not even conscious of why he is doing what he is doing. When he is �?he can't tell the outcomes. Even when he can �?he feels powerless to behave otherwise. The narcissist is a pawn in the chess game played between the structures of his fragmented, fluid personality. So, in a classical �?juridical sense, the narcissist is not to blame, he is not fully responsible or aware of what he is doing to others. This seems to contradict my answer to FAQ # 13 where I write: "The narcissist knows to tell right from wrong. He is perfectly capable of anticipating the results of his actions and their influence on his human environment. The narcissist is very perceptive and sensitive to the subtlest nuances. He has to be: the very integrity of his personality depends upon input from others�?A person suffering from NPD must be subjected to the same moral treatment and judgement as the rest of us, the less privileged, are. The courts do not recognise NPD to be a mitigating circumstance �?why should we?" But, the contradiction is only apparent. The narcissist is perfectly capable both of distinguishing right from wrong �?and of foretelling the outcomes of his actions. In this sense, the narcissist should be held liable for his deeds and exploits. If he so chooses, the narcissist can fight his compulsive inclination to behave the way that he does. This would come at a great personal psychological price. Avoidance or suppression of a compulsive act results in increased anxiety. The narcissist prefers his own well-being to that of others. Even when confronted with the great misery that he fosters, he hardly feels responsible (for instance, he rarely attends to psychotherapy). To put it more plainly, the (average) narcissist is unable to answer the question: "Why did you do what you did?" or "Why did you choose this mode of action over others available to you under the same circumstances?" These decisions are taken unconsciously. But once the course of action is (unconsciously) decided, the narcissist has a perfect grasp of what he is doing, that it is wrong with it and what will be the price others are likely to pay for it. And he can then choose to reverse course (for instance, to refrain from doing anything). In one sense therefore, he is not to blame �?in another he is very guilty. The narcissist deliberately confuses responsibility with guilt. The concepts are so close that the distinctions often get blurred. By provoking guilt in responsibility-laden situations, the narcissist transforms life with him into a constant trial. Actually, the trial itself is the punishment and, therefore, is eternal. A failure, for instance, induces guilt and the narcissist always labels someone else's efforts as "failures". The narcissist then strives to shift the responsibility for the failures thus proclaimed to his victim so as to maximise the opportunity to chastise and castigate him. The logic is two-phased. First, every responsibility added to the victim is bound to lead to failure, which, in turn, induces in the victim guilt feelings, self-recrimination and self-punishment. Secondly, more and more responsibilities are shifted away from the narcissist and onto his mate �?so that, as time goes by, an asymmetry of failures is established. Burdened with less and less responsibilities and tasks �?the narcissist fails less. It preserves the narcissist's sense of superiority, on the one hand �?and legitimises his sadistic attacks on his victim, on the other hand. The narcissist's partner is also to "blame". Such folies-a-deux can never take place without the full collaboration of a willingly and voluntarily subordinated victim. Such partners have a wish to be punished, to be eroded through constant, biting criticisms, unfavourable comparisons, veiled and not so veiled threats, acting out, betrayals and humiliations. It makes them feel cleansed, "holy", whole, sacrificial. Many of them, when they realise their situation (it is very difficult to discern it from the inside) �?abandon the narcissist and dismantle the relationship. Others prefer to believe in the healing power of love or some such other nonsense. It is nonsense not because love has no therapeutic power �?it is by far the most powerful weapon in the healing arsenal. It is nonsense, because it is wasted on a human shell, incapable of feeling anything but binary and negative emotions, which vaguely filter through his dreamlike existence. The narcissist is incapable of loving, his emotional apparatus ruined by years of deprivation, abuse, misuse and disuse. Granted, he is unequalled at simulating human emotions and their attendant behaviours. He is convincing, he is deviously successful and sweeps everyone around him into the turbulent delusion which he consists of. He uses anything and anyone to secure his dose of Narcissistic Supply �?and discards, without a second thought those he deems worthless in this �?and only in this �?regard. The narcissist-victim dyad is a conspiracy, a collusion of victim and mental tormentor, a collaboration of two needy people who find solace and supply in each other's deviations. Only by breaking loose, by aborting the game, by ignoring the rules �?can the victim be transformed (and by the way, acquire the newly found appreciation of the narcissist). The narcissist also stands to benefit from such a move. But both the narcissist and his partner do not really think about each other. Gripped in the arms of an all-consuming dance macabre, they follow the motions morbidly, semiconscious, desensitised, exhausted, concerned only with survival �?their survival. Living with a narcissist is very much like being in a maimum security prison. It is taxing. The narcissist's partner should not feel guilty or responsible and should not seek to change what only time (not even therapy) and (difficult) circumstances may change. She should not strive to please and to appease, to be and not to be, to barely survive as a superposition of pain and fear. Releasing herself from the chains of guilt and from the throes of a debilitating relationship �?is the best help that a loving mate can provide to her ailing narcissistic partner. Hope this helps somehow. Take care. Sam |
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Wow....awesome post Sam. I"m printing this and putting it under my desk blotter. As a reminder of why I want to get the hell out of this mess...and stay out. G |
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I think I understand. You certainly describe my parents. I have to keep remembering that they know not what they do. Thanks again, Melody |
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Hey Doc Sam, another question from Melody: My daughter has patterned herself after the narcissistic members of my family. She eventually became so verbally and emotionally abusive, to me that I had to set some ground rules for our relationship. Immediately, she quit talking to me and continues to ignore me. She seems very angry and hostile and I'm afraid for her mental health. Is there anything I can do? |
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| (1 recommendation so far) | Message 9 of 9 in Discussion |
| From: samvak | Sent: 20/02/2004 1:16 p.m. |
Hi, Melody, Here is what I wrote to another mother in your condition: "Donovan, 16 years old, is incapable of loving and, therefore, has never loved you, his mother (or, for that matter, anyone else, himself included) in his entire life. His natural capacity to love and to return love was all but eliminated by his horrid childhood. We practice loving first and foremost through our parents. If they fail us, if they turn out to be unpredictable, capricious, violent, unjust �?this capacity is stunted forever. This is what happened to Donovan: the ideal figures of his childhood proved to be much less than ideal. Abuse is a very poor ground to breed healthy emotions in. Granted, Donovan �?being the brilliant and manipulative person that he is �?knows how to perfectly simulate and emulate LOVE. He acts lovingly �?but this is a mere act and it should not be confused with the real thing. Donovan shows love in order to achieve goals: money, a warm house, food on the table, adoration (Narcissistic Supply). Once these are available from other sources �?the former ones are abandoned callously, cold-heartedly, cruelly and abruptly. You have been such a temporary stopover for Donovan, the equivalent of a full board hotel (no chores, no requirements on his time). Not only was he able to secure his material needs from you �?he also found in you a perfect Source of Narcissistic Supply: adoring, submissive, non-critical, wide-eyed, approving, admiring, the perfect narcissistic fix. You describe a very disturbed young man with a clear NPD. He values intelligence above all, he uses foul language to vent his aggression (the narcissist resents his dependence on his Sources of Supply). The narcissist knows it all and best, is judgemental (without merit), hates all people (though he calls upon them if he needs something �?he is never above exploiting and manipulation). When not in need, he does not contact his "friends", not even his "girlfriend". After all, emotions ("sensitivity") are a deplorable weakness. In the pursuit of narcissistic gratification, there is no place for hesitation or pause. You put it succinctly: he will do nothing for others, nothing matters to him if it is not for himself. As a result, he lets people down and refrains almost religiously from keeping promises and obligations. The narcissist is above such mundane things as obligations undertaken. They counter his conviction that he is above any law �?social or other, and this threatens his grandiosity. The narcissist, being above reproach (who is qualified to judge him, to teach him, to advise him?), inevitably reverts to blaming others for his misdeeds: they should have warned/reminded/alerted him. For instance: they should have woke him up if they desired his precious company and wanted him to keep a date. The narcissist is above normal humans and their daily chores: he doesn't think that he needs to attend classes (that others do. This is the unspoken continuation of this sentence). Other people should do so because they are inferior (stupid). This is the natural order of things �?read Nietzsche. Most narcissists are predictable and, therefore, boring. To love a narcissist is to love a reflection, not a real figure. Donovan is the most basic, primitive type: the somatic (or anal) narcissist, whose disorder is centred around his body, his skin, his hair, his dress, his food, his health. Some of these preoccupations attain a phobic aura ("freaky with germs") and that is a bad sign. Hypochondriasis could be the next mental step. But Donovan is in great danger. He should seek help immediately. His NPD �?as is usually the case �?has been and is still being compounded by other, more serious disorders. He is led down a path of no return. Donovan is constantly depressed. Maybe he has had few major depressive episodes but he is distinctly dysphoric (sad) and anhedonic (hates the world and finds pleasure in nothing). He alternates between hypersomnia (sleeping too much) and insomnia (not sleeping for two days). This is one of the surest signs of depression. Narcissists suffer, by their nature, from an undulating sense of self-worth and from all-pervasive feelings of guilt and recrimination. They punish themselves: they dress in ragged clothes contrary to their primary predilections and they direct their pent up aggression at themselves. The result is depression. Donovan also seems to suffer from a schizoid personality. These people prefer to stay and work in their rooms, in solitary confinement, chained to their computers and books �?to any social encounter or diversion. They rarely possess sufficient trust in others and the requisite emotional baggage to develop stable interpersonal relationships. They are miserable failures at communicating and confine their interactions to first degree relatives. The total picture is that of a young person suffering from a Borderline Personality Disorder with strong narcissistic and schizoid hues. His reckless and self-destructive spending and his eating irregularities point in this direction. So does the inappropriate affect (for instance, smiling while pretending to shoot people). Donovan is a menace above all to himself. Borderline patients entertain suicide thoughts (they have suicidal ideation) and tend finally to act upon them. This aggression can perhaps be directed elsewhere and result in catastrophic consequences. But, at best, Donovan will continue to make people around him miserable. Treatment �?psychoanalysis and other psychodynamic therapies included �?is not very effective. My advice to you is to immediately stop your "unconditional love". Narcissists sense blood where others see only love and altruism. If �?for masochistic reasons �?you still wish to engage this young person, my advice to you would be to condition your love. Sign a contract with him: you want my adoration, admiration, approval, warmth, you want my home and money available to you as an insurance policy? If you do �?these are my conditions. And if he says that he doesn't want to have anything to do with you anymore �?count your blessings and let go." This may also be of interest: http://samvak.tripod.com/4.html You take care there. Sam |
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