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General : What to Say when they Tell you they know they are sick
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 Message 1 of 21 in Discussion 
From: poppy  (Original Message)Sent: 26/10/2008 6:30 p.m.
I have not posted in a long time. I have not needed to, As I have been NC and happy and moving on. Then, last night, out of nowhere at an odd hour, my phone rings from a private number. It's the ollllllld N...and he's sniffling and upset and he says his sister (who is adopted) just told him she won't be coming to Thanksgiving because she just can't stand to be around their parents or him -- because ..and he starts getting all vague and mushy mouthed, but he musters "because of their mental illness. And mine" and then he says "I know something's wrong with me, I can feel it.. but It was like "whoa" to hear her say it. It's like she held up a mirror and showed me I am just like my parents' (he has told me many times he has "narcissistic" parents and from the stories he has told, he sure does) He was saying things like "I know I can shift away from this-- I know it's late in life but I can make the change they never could" OH GOD i tell you it's REALLY HARD not to want this to be true and real. I didn't know WHAT to do. I just listened and said "and how do you feel? are you scared?" and things like that. I have my guard WAY up, but I mean, I am in contact with him-- that is NOT good. HAs this ever happened to anyone else? It's like the ultimate bait-- him saying "i know I am sick and I know I can beat it"

he didn't say anything like "with your help" i can beat it or aynthing like that, but he DID say he was so grateful i was here to answer the phone and when getting off he asked if we can talk again. I know all the drills and I know I should not be available to him.

I guess I'm just curious if this has happened to anyone else-- what you did-- ?

It's going to take a lot of strength not to listen at all. It's like playing on my ultimate sympathy, "I can fix him' card. GUGHGHHGHG


First  Previous  7-21 of 21  Next  Last 
Reply
(1 recommendation so far) Message 7 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameWhatjusthappened0Sent: 26/10/2008 9:17 p.m.
I would say good for you N. Thing is many N's admit at crucial time i.e. about to lose NS that they are messed up. They promise change because they know that's how they can hook you because we're always trying to fix and change others right?
 
I have a plan. If N ever says he wants to change and wants me back...my answer will be, if your doctor says there's a cure for N, have him document it and show that you're cured and I'll need a solid 12 month history of 12 step work for you addiction. We'll talk again when all conditions have been met.........
 
Sweetie........this day will never come for me...I can't predict your future or your XN's, but, I'm pretty sure the same applies.
 
Many hugs........he's jerking your strings. He knows what you need to hear to let him back in to continue to drain your spirit from you. I'm so sorry for you......it hurts, but, these N's are just not normal. Just keep on keeping on and stay here with us.
 
Many hugs...........

Reply
 Message 8 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameAlamobelle3Sent: 26/10/2008 9:20 p.m.

Remind him you arent a therapist and dont play one on TV

suggest he confer with his primary care physican about a referral to a mental health professional .

Put the responsibility of taking care of him back on his shoulders --

They always want someone else to do the taking care of

refuse -

even better dont answer any more calls from private numbers -
you arent on the transplant list
are being deployed to Iraq

rarely is the call - a true emergency and even then
they will leave a message

Only way this stops is to disengage and refuse to
participate

His health mental or otherwise is not your problem
think about how uncaring he would be should the
situation reverse

Its hard but they are a waste of time all the way around
no way this turns into a plus for you

Reply
 Message 9 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nickname_x_mina_x_Sent: 26/10/2008 9:42 p.m.
ANd I can't answer any more calls from "private'

For now that maybe your best bet, you know you and what you can and can't handle.  I thought I was strong enough to take on my abusers.....hey I had the knowledge and knowledge is power...right?

It is about your emotions, you may know about them and why they do things.  But it is how you react and going totally NC is the safe bet for now and forever.

It is all about practise, abuse creates chaotic boundaries and you were conditioned to not be able to say and mean the word NO.

I always had a problem with the word NO, take for instance telephone solicators, they would ring my tele and I had an awful time saying NO...I would say it and let them go on and on.

Slowly, I learned to say NO and mean it, I say "No thank you I am not interested", they will try to push me, "But, we....."  I hang up the phone...no guilt, no shame.  I stated clearly, "NO thank you"  in a polite manner.

It is hard and takes practise, working on the word NO and standing behind it, I have let others manipulate me, again it takes time.  You have the right to say NO, mean it and others should respect it...if they push...walk away.

Heal, work on your emotional responses, time does heal, patience heals, self love heals.

 

 




Reply
 Message 10 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknameblindfor35yearsSent: 26/10/2008 10:07 p.m.
Benthere-

Wow. I love that image. "He's been baked." That should become as popular as the "toaster" image. (anyone know who came up with that one?)

Poppy--think of this, too. Let's pretend there is a possibility of an n actually changing his nature (not just his behavior). What are the chances of that? One in a billion maybe? I assume you wouldn't liquidate all your assets and take every penny you had and wager it on one number and one spin of a roulette wheel. But if you did, you'd have a much better chance of winning than if you wager everything on an n who "really wants to fix himself."

I'm with WJH--tell him you'll talk when he can bring you documentation of his "cure."

Then get on with your n-free life





Reply
 Message 11 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameBrendaD0Sent: 27/10/2008 4:53 a.m.
Alamobelle is right. If he truly has enough insight to know he is sick than it is his responsibility to go for help. But beware this could just be a pity play.

Reply
The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 12 of 21 in Discussion 
Sent: 27/10/2008 6:16 a.m.
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Reply
(1 recommendation so far) Message 13 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamekikilanderSent: 27/10/2008 6:21 a.m.
 
Yes, mine gave me many hopes, time after time, that he was becoming "aware" and
that he was changing.  So many VERY CONVINCING conversations, and stretches of time where that seemed to be true.  He was very "normal" on the outside, had so many desireable qualities.  And I loved him dearly, passionately,  put so much effort into it all for so long... I was heavily invested in/addicted to "fixing" him, and supporting him in his "efforts" to want to be "fixed."  It took an embarrassing amount of things for me to give up on him.
 
He contacted me once, six months after NC, and I even went back to him after over 5 years of NC - he NEVER changed, not one bit, he only got better at his game.
 
I think we get hung up on the fact, too, that we know we are worth it - after all the love and support, everything we gave them - we are worth it for them to want to change - you are worth it for him to want to change. 
 
And who would want to be like they are, anyway... of course we believe they want to change - of course they should be sorry as hell for things they've done, and want to be different.
 
But, they don't change, they can't.  If they could, none of us would be here talking to each other.
 
It's so sad, I know, so, so heartbreaking for many different reasons.
 
I hope if mine ever calls again that I could just hang up the moment I heard his voice.
 
I think just talking to them, no matter what you say, is supply for them and that is all they are after - not YOU, just supply, even if they've temporarily convinced you or themselves otherwise.
 
Good luck and hugs to you.

Reply
 Message 14 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameAmora52Sent: 27/10/2008 6:43 a.m.
This post really got me thinking what my N told me a few days after I put him out...
 
"I know there is something wrong with me...I don't know---I can't be happy.... BUT I KNOW THAT NO GOD OR NO COUNSELOR OR NO DOCTOR CAN HELP ME!!!!"  
 
He knows, and just runs aways and hurts anyone along his narcissistic path of self-destruction......!!
 
Stay strong...... they don't get better, they only get worse!!

Reply
 Message 15 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamememoir_of_a_seasonSent: 27/10/2008 10:47 a.m.
Kiki, you made such a poignant post, and every word of it rang so true to me. Exactly what my relationship with the N was like. Exactly what giving up was like, too.
 
Poppy, please try to remember that change can only come from the inside. If the N is knocking down your door, that means he's looking for something from the outside to make him feel like he's taking action in a "positive" direction.  He may really want to change. He might like the concept, but real change is agonizing and lonely for a very long time--it's undoing the FOO, which is like undoing the self.  The first sign that he won't be capable of facing it is that he's steam rolling you already, needing the very thing (outside influence) that he's trying to overcome!
 
By helping him, you see, you're only holding him back from facing what he needs to face to really make some different choices.  So if you really love him, let him go.
 
Best to you,
~mems

Reply
 Message 16 of 21 in Discussion 
From: chattymitchieSent: 27/10/2008 11:13 a.m.
This is such a great post - I love this comment from Benthere
 
I'm here to tell you poppy-- you did the right thing in cutting this right off. It's not going to happen--the disorder is a characterlogical disorder and and it's like trying to take the chocalate out of a marble cake.
 
He's done--been baked--and he's what he is.
 
It's so sad to read it, but it's so true and in some ways just reading it reminds me that my xN is just mentally ill - there's no point continually feeling angry about what he did to me because he is what he is.  And sadly there's no way back for him, trying to disentangle his personality would be impossible, he's 42 and it's set in stone (or marble cake!).  Just reading that has helped me this morning as I've been feeling a bit down about things, and felt that I missed him. 

Reply
 Message 17 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameN3SXSent: 28/10/2008 3:36 a.m.
YES...he said "I thought this went away when our baby was born and then it came back". They are real people and have real moments but they would have to be in therapy everyday for years and be willing to see all of the times they have sucked the souls out of others...I have seen N lose almost everything. His best friend/wife, child, home and now his career. Soon he might lose his freedom..Yes he has had real moments where he has admitted what he has known all along. No he couldn't make it for US...he chose to let the disease kill himself. Cut the ties...

Reply
 Message 18 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamegoingnorth2Sent: 28/10/2008 3:58 a.m.
I know exactly what to say if my XNBF ever tells me that. 
 
"Better you than me!"
 
 

Reply
 Message 19 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameOlivia5599Sent: 28/10/2008 2:15 p.m.
It's a scam-

He's actually probably patting himself on the back to have found this great way to reel you back in...

I would not, ever, say "come back in X time w/proof"- I'd say "find a shrink and please do not call again". Sounds cruel- but not nearly as cruel as they are.

Liv

Reply
 Message 20 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamesamvakSent: 28/10/2008 7:14 p.m.
Projection and Projective Identification - Abuser in Denial

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5002
 
Narcissists and Psychopaths Devalue Their Psychotherapists

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4939
 

Narcissism, Self-Awareness, and Healing

Narcissism, Pathological Narcissism, The Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), the Narcissist,

and Relationships with Abusive Narcissists and Psychopaths

By: Dr. Sam Vaknin


Malignant Self Love - Buy the Book - Click HERE!!!

Relationships with Abusive Narcissists - Buy the e-Books - Click HERE!!!


 

Question:

If the narcissist becomes self-aware, if he accepts that he is a narcissist, isn't this the first, important step, towards healing?

Answer:

Narcissism defines the narcissist's waking moments and his nocturnal dreams. It is all-pervasive. Everything the narcissist does is motivated by it. Everything he avoids is its result. Every utterance, decision, his very body language - are all manifestations of narcissism. It is rather like being abducted by an alien and ruthlessly indoctrinated ever since. The alien is the narcissist's False Self - a defence mechanism constructed in order to shield his True Self from hurt and inevitable abandonment.

Cognitive understanding of the disorder does not constitute a transforming INSIGHT. In other words, it has no emotional correlate. The narcissist does not INTERNALIZE what he understands and learns about his disorder. This new gained knowledge does not become a motivating part of the narcissist. It remains an inert and indifferent piece of knowledge, with minor influence on the narcissist's psyche.

Sometimes, when the narcissist first learns about the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), he really believes he could change (usually, following a period of violent rejection of the "charges" against him). He fervently wants to. This is especially true when his whole world is in shambles. Time in prison, a divorce, a bankruptcy, a death of a major source of narcissistic supply - are all transforming life crises. The narcissist admits to a problem only when abandoned, destitute, and devastated. He feels that he doesn't want any more of this. He wants to change. And there often are signs that he IS changing. And then it fades. He reverts to old form. The "progress" he had made evaporates virtually overnight. Many narcissists report the same process of progression followed by recidivist remission and many therapists refuse to treat narcissists because of the Sisyphean frustration involved.

(continued below)


This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

Click HERE to buy the print edition from Barnes and Noble or HERE to buy it from Amazon or HERE to buy it from The Book Source

Click HERE to buy the print edition from the publisher and receive a BONUS PACK

Click HERE to buy various electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships

Click HERE to buy the ENTIRE SERIES of eight electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships


I never said that narcissists cannot CHANGE - only that they cannot HEAL. There is a huge difference between behavior modification and a permanent alteration of the psychodynamic landscape. Narcissistic behavior CAN be modified using a cocktail of talk therapy, conditioning, and medication. I have yet to encounter a healed narcissist.

The emphasis in therapy is thus more on accommodating the needs of those nearest and dearest to the narcissist - spouse, children, colleagues, friends - than on "treating" the narcissist. If the narcissist's abrasiveness, rage, mood swings, reckless and impulsive behaviors are modified - those around him benefit most. This, as far as I am concerned, is a form of social engineering.

One last hope:

Narcissism (though rarely) does tend to ameliorate with age and many forms of pathological narcissism are reactive and transient (Ronningstam and Gunderson, 1996).


Also Read

Guilt? What guilt?

Narcissists and Introspection

The Narcissist's Warped Reality

Projection and Projective Identification - Abuser in Denial

Does the Narcissist Have a Multiple Personality (Dissociative Identity Disorder)?

 

Question:

I met many narcissists who are modest �?even self-effacing. This seems to conflict with your observations. How do you reconcile the two?

Answer:

The "modesty" displayed by narcissists is false. It is mostly and merely verbal. It is couched in flourishing phrases, emphasised to absurdity, repeated unnecessarily �?usually to the point of causing gross inconvenience to the listener. The real aim of such behaviour and its subtext are exactly the opposite of common modesty.

It is intended to either aggrandise the narcissist or to protect his grandiosity from scrutiny and possible erosion. Such modest outbursts precede inflated, grandiosity-laden statements made by the narcissist and pertaining to fields of human knowledge and activity in which he is sorely lacking.

Devoid of systematic and methodical education, the narcissist tries to make do with pompous, or aggressive mannerisms, bombastic announcements, and the unnecessary and wrong usage of professional jargon. He attempts to dazzle his surroundings with apparent "brilliance" and to put possible critics on the defence.

Beneath all this he is shallow, ignorant, improvising, and fearful of being exposed as deceitful. The narcissist is a conjurer of verbosity, using sleight of mouth rather than sleight of hand. He is ever possessed by the fear that he is really a petty crook about to be unearthed and reviled by society.

This is a horrible feeling to endure and a taxing, onerous way to live. The narcissist has to protect himself from his own premonitions, from his internal semipternal trial, his guilt, shame, and anxiety. One of the more efficacious defence mechanisms is false modesty.

The narcissist publicly chastises himself for being unfit, unworthy, lacking, not trained and not (formally) schooled, not objective, cognisant of his own shortcomings and vain. This way, if (or, rather, when) exposed he could always say: "But I told you so in the first place, haven't I?" False modesty is, thus an insurance policy. The narcissist "hedges his bets" by placing a side bet on his own fallibility, weakness, deficiencies and proneness to err.

Yet another function is to extract Narcissistic Supply from the listener. By contrasting his own self-deprecation with a brilliant, dazzling display of ingenuity, wit, intellect, knowledge, or beauty �?the narcissist aims to secure an adoring, admiring, approving, or applauding protestation from the listener.

(continued below)


This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

Click HERE to buy the print edition from Barnes and Noble or HERE to buy it from Amazon or HERE to buy it from The Book Source

Click HERE to buy the print edition from the publisher and receive a BONUS PACK

Click HERE to buy various electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships

Click HERE to buy the ENTIRE SERIES of eight electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships


The person to whom the falsely modest statement is addressed is expected to vehemently deny the narcissist's claims: "But, really, you are more of an expert than you say!", or "Why did you tell me that you are unable to do (this or that)? Truly, you are very gifted!" "Don't put yourself down so much - you are a generous man!"

The narcissist then shrugs, smirks, blushes and moves uncomfortably from side to side. This was not his intention, he assures his interlocutor. He did not mean to fish for compliments (exactly what he did mean to do). He really does not deserve the praise. But the aim has, thus, been achieved: the Narcissistic Supply has been doled out and avidly consumed. Despite the narcissist's protestations, he feels much better now.

The narcissist is a dilettante and a charlatan. He glosses over complicated subjects and situations in life. He sails through them powered by shallow acquaintance with rapidly acquired verbal and behavioural vocabularies (which he then promptly proceeds to forget).

False modesty is only one of a series of feigned behaviours. The narcissist is a pathological liar, either implicitly or explicitly. His whole existence is a derivative of a False Self, his deceitful invention and its reflections. With false modesty he seeks to involve others in his mind games, to co-opt them, to force them to collaborate while making ultimate use of social conventions of conduct.

The narcissist, above all, is a shrewd manipulator, well-acquainted with human nature and its fault lines. No narcissist will ever admit to it. In this sense, narcissists are really modest.


Also Read

 The Weapon of Language

The Narcissist's Reality Substitutes

The Narcissist's Confabulated Life

I have a riotous, subtle, ironic, and sharpened sense of humour. I can be self-deprecating and self-effacing. I do not recoil from making my dilapidated Ego the target of my own barbs. Yet, this is true only when I have Narcissistic Supply aplenty. Narcissistic Supply - attention, adulation, admiration, applause, fame, celebrity, notoriety - neuter the sting of my self-directed jokes. In my more humorous moments I can present myself as the opposite of what is widely known to be true. I can unfold a tale of fatuous decisions followed by clumsy misbehaviour - yet, no one would take me to be fatuous or clumsy. It is as though my reputation protects me from the brunt of my own jocular modesty. I can afford to be magnanimously forgiving of my own shortcomings because they are so outweighed by my gifts and by my widely known achievements or traits.

Still, the gist of what I once wrote stands:

"A narcissist rarely engages in self-directed, self-deprecating humour. If he does, he  expects to be contradicted, rebuked and rebuffed by his listeners ('Come on, you are actually quite handsome!'), or to be commended or admired for his courage or for his wit and intellectual acerbity ('I envy your ability to laugh at yourself!'). As everything else in a narcissist's life, his sense of humour is deployed in the interminable pursuit of Narcissistic Supply."

I am completely different when I lack Narcissistic Supply or when in search of sources of such supply. Humour is always an integral part of my charm offensive. But, when Narcissistic Supply is deficient, it is never self-directed. Moreover, when deprived of supply, I react with hurt and rage when I am the butt of jokes and humorous utterances. I counter-attack ferociously and make a complete arse of myself.

Why these extremes?

"The absence of Narcissistic Supply (or the impending threat of such an absence) is, indeed, a serious matter. It is the narcissistic equivalent of mental death. If prolonged and unmitigated, such absence can lead to the real thing: physical death, a result of suicide, or of a psychosomatic deterioration of the narcissist's health. Yet, to obtain Narcissistic Supply, one must be taken seriously and to be taken seriously one must be the first to take oneself seriously. Hence the gravity with which the narcissist contemplates his life. This lack of levity and of perspective and proportion characterise the narcissist and set him apart.

(continued below)


This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

Click HERE to buy the print edition from Barnes and Noble or HERE to buy it from Amazon or HERE to buy it from The Book Source

Click HERE to buy the print edition from the publisher and receive a BONUS PACK

Click HERE to buy various electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships

Click HERE to buy the ENTIRE SERIES of eight electronic books (e-books) about narcissists, psychopaths, and abuse in relationships


The narcissist firmly believes that he is unique and that he is thus endowed because he has a mission to fulfill, a destiny, a meaning to his life. The narcissist's life is a part of history, of a cosmic plot and it constantly tends to thicken. Such a life deserves only the most serious attention. Moreover, every particle of such an existence, every action or inaction, every utterance, creation, or composition, indeed every thought, are bathed in this cosmic meaningfulness. They all lead down the paths of glory, of achievement, of perfection, of ideals, of brilliance. They are all part of a design, a pattern, a plot, which inexorably and unstoppably lead the narcissist on to the fulfillment of his task. The narcissist may subscribe to a religion, to a belief, or to an ideology in his effort to understand the source of this strong feeling of uniqueness. He may attribute his sense of direction to God, to history, to society, to culture, to a calling, to his profession, to a value system. But he always does so with a straight face, with a firm conviction and with deadly seriousness.

And because, to the narcissist, the part is a holographic reflection of the whole - he tends to generalise, to resort to stereotypes, to induct (to learn about the whole from the detail), to exaggerate, finally to pathologically lie to himself and to others. This tendency of his, this self-importance, this belief in a grand design, in an all embracing and all-pervasive pattern - make him an easy prey to all manner of logical fallacies and con artistry. Despite his avowed and proudly expressed rationality the narcissist is besieged by superstition and prejudice. Above all, he is a captive of the false belief that his uniqueness destines him to carry a mission of cosmic significance.

All these make the narcissist a volatile person. Not merely mercurial - but fluctuating, histrionic, unreliable, and disproportional. That which has cosmic implications calls for cosmic reactions. The person with an inflated sense of self-import, will react in an inflated manner to threats, greatly inflated by his imagination and by the application to them of his personal myth. On a cosmic scale, the daily vagaries of life, the mundane, the routine are not important, even damagingly distracting. This is the source of his feelings of exceptional entitlement. Surely, engaged as he is in securing the well being of humanity by the exercise of his unique faculties - the narcissist deserves special treatment! This is the source of his violent swings between opposite behaviour patterns and between devaluation and idealisation of others. To the narcissist, every minor development is nothing less than a new stage in his life, every adversity, a conspiracy to upset his progress, every setback an apocalyptic calamity, every irritation the cause for outlandish outbursts of rage. He is a man of the extremes and only of the extremes. He may learn to efficiently suppress or hide his feelings or reactions - but never for long. In the most inappropriate and inopportune moment, you can count on the narcissist to explode, like a wrongly wound time bomb. And in between eruptions, the narcissistic volcano daydreams, indulges in delusions, plans his victories over an increasingly hostile and alienated environment. Gradually, the narcissist becomes more paranoid - or more aloof, detached and dissociative.

In such a setting, you must admit, there is not much room for a sense of humour."


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Reply
 Message 21 of 21 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamethx-rachelSent: 29/10/2008 2:56 p.m.
What to Say when they Tell you they know they are sick?
 
I would highly recommend
 
"I hope you can get the help you need" 
and then
"Goodbye"

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