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N Relatives : Adult Children of Narcissists by Dr. Sam Vaknin
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(4 recommendations so far) Message 1 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamefemfree  (Original Message)Sent: 26/06/2007 4:04 p.m.
Adult Children of Narcissists
By Sam Vaknin
Author of "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"
 

Interview granted to Elizabeth Svoboda of Psychology Today

Q. Once you became an adult, how did your relationship with your parents change? What are some of the unique difficulties of being an adult child of narcissistic parents? Feel free to give examples or describe specific situations you found yourself in.

A. Adult children of narcissists adopt one of two solutions: entanglement or detachment. Children of narcissists should avoid the encounter because it is bound to stir up a nest of emotional hornets which they may not be able to cope with effectively. They should refuse to subject themselves to repeated abuse, however subtle, surreptitious, and ambient. Absenteeism is a way of neutralizing the abusive parents' weapons.

But the vast majority of grown up offspring of narcissists find themselves enmeshed in unhealthy permutations of their childhood, caught in an exhausting dance macabre, developing special semiotic vocabularies to decipher the convoluted exchanges that pass for communication in their families. They compulsively revisit unresolved conflicts and re-enact painful scenes in the forlorn hope that, this time around, the resolution would be favorable and benign.

Such entanglement only serves to exacerbate the corrosive give-and-take that constitutes the child-parent relationship in the narcissist's family. Such recurrent friction, unwelcome but irresistible, deepens and entrenches the grudges and enmity that both parties accumulate in sort of a bookkeeping of hurt and counter-hurt.

Q. When we become adults, what are our responsibilities to parents who have personality problems? Do you think we're obligated to put up with them as a kind of payback for everything they gave us when we were young, or are we justified in cutting them off if the situation gets too intractable?

A. Our first and foremost obligation is to ourselves and to our welfare - as well as to our loved ones. People with personality disorders are disruptive in the extreme. They pose a clear and present danger both to themselves and to others. They are an emotional liability and a time bomb. They are a riddle we, their progeny, can never hope to resolve and they constitute living proof that not only were we not loved as children but are unloveable as adults.

Why would one saddle oneself with such debilitating constraints on one's ability to feel, to experience, to dare, and to soar to one's fullest potential? Narcissistic parents are an albatross around their children's necks because they are incapable of truly, fully, and unconditionally loving.

Q. How can we try to manage difficult parents' behavior, if at all—or at least, minimize its impact on us?
Q. What advice would you give others who find themselves in a similar situation with their parents? What were some of the strategies that worked for you?

A. At the risk of sounding repetitive: disengage to the best of your ability. Make it a point to limit your encounters with these sad reminders of your childhood to the bare minimum. Delegate obligations to third parties, to professionals, to other members of the family. Hire nurses, accountants, and lawyers if you can afford it. Place them in a senior home. Move to another state. The more distance you put between yourself and your personality disordered abuser-parents and their radioactive influence, the better you are bound to feel: liberated, decisive, empowered, calmer, in control, clear about yourself and your goals.

These points are crucial:

Do not allow your parents to manage your life any longer

Do not allow them to interfere with your new family: your wife and children

Do not allow them to turn you into a servant, instantaneously and obsequiously at their beck ad call

Do not become their source of funding

Do not become their exclusive or most important source of narcissistic supply (attention, adulation, admiration)

Do not show them that they can hurt you or that you are afraid of them or that they have any kind of power over you

Be ostentatiously autonomous and independent-minded in their presence

Do not succumb to emotional blackmail or emotional incest

Punish them by disengaging every time they transgress. Condition them not to misbehave, not to abuse you.

Identify the most common strategies of fostering unhealthy (trauma) bonding and the most prevalent control mechanisms:

Guilt-driven ("I sacrificed my life for you�?)

Codependent ("I need you, I cannot cope without you�?)

Goal-driven ("We have a common goal which we can and must achieve")

Shared psychosis or emotional incest ("You and I are united against the whole world, or at least against your monstrous, no-good father ...", "You are my one and only true love and passion")

Explicit ("If you do not adhere to my principles, beliefs, ideology, religion, values, if you do not obey my instructions �?I will punish you").



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Reply
 Message 2 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameBCEADSent: 26/06/2007 5:29 p.m.
Thank you for this information.  I would like to share it with my adult children.

Reply
 Message 3 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknameshanu03Sent: 27/06/2007 12:54 a.m.
Thanks Femfree,
 
I will show my husband this. The article is very informative.
 
Shanu

Reply
 Message 4 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamedonnarmillerSent: 26/08/2007 8:40 a.m.
Thanks for that
My N's daughter I believe is an N also.
 
She is 30yo.  I met my N when she was only 17yo.  There was one occasion back then when she said to me "I hate him I am only here for his money".  She was at the kitchen sink washing the dishes and she was in tears.
 
She also said to me at that time "if you don't get on with me I will make it hard for you and dad"
 
I believe she is a full blown N now herself.  She never forgets his birthday, fathers day, xmas.  She rings him and e-mails him every week.  She gives him adulation and puts down everyone else who she thinks is getting more attention than her.  She is the apple of her fathers eye.  God help anyone who stands in between them.  They bounce off each other and give each other what they need.
 
She hates me and has told me so.  I have been ridiculed by my N for not trying hard enough to get on with her.  Every time I try it is never one on one.  She runs back to her father with comments that I have made to her and turns them around to make me look bad.  Of course he believes her and I am left in a place worse than before. 
 
This is one of the occasions where I do believe that N's get on with N's.  They seem to feed off one another.  The adulation is enormous between them.  She is seen by him to be perfect and vice versa.  At 30yo and living away from her father now she is not in the firing line.  They are far enough away from each other to give and take the adulation without suffering the pain.
 
She is a master at put downs already.  One of the e-mails she sent to me she wrote "Donna I would have invited you to my wedding but you know what you are like".  She sent a copy of the e-mail to her father.  Of course he supported her and again it was seen to be confirmation of me being the baddy and I was not invited to the family get together and her wedding.  My N and my N's ex and her husband and son and grandparents were all there except me.  My god I am his wife.

Reply
 Message 5 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameCassiopia662Sent: 26/08/2007 12:03 p.m.
thanks femfree, not sure how i missed this article back then.......have copied it.......x

Reply
 Message 6 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamefluffinupSent: 27/08/2007 11:47 p.m.
Fem,
 
Thank you for the article, it's so helpful to hear more about NPD.  In the article it says to "condition them not to misbehave, not to abuse you."  I am wondering if this is really possible to do.  If it is possible for a child to condition their N parent not to misbehave or abuse, then might the method used also be used when you are a target of an N to get them to stop targeting you?  Is there a place to go to find out more about this?  One of the things I have failed miserably at is getring NMIL to stop stealing and vandalizing.  I know now why she does it, she does it to bait me hoping I'll accuse her, then she feigns innocence and tells everyone how miserable I am to her.  If I could get that to stop, wow, that would be huge.
 
Donna,
You said your husband is N, are you okay with him?
 
Thanks Fem,
Fluff
 
Thanks,
Fluff

Reply
 Message 7 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamedonnarmillerSent: 28/08/2007 1:25 a.m.
Hi Fluff
Yes my husband is an N.
 
Up until 7 weeks ago, it was going ok.  I said to myself, it is no use fighting him.  I will do what I have to to make me happy and in turn for a while that made him happy, until he went back to work full time relieving for 5 weeks.  Suddenly the status quo changed.  He had no time for me and did his own thing.  He would get up at 5 go to work.  Get home at 4, have a shower, watch the news, eat and go to bed at 8pm.  This went on for 5 weeks.  On weekends he was obsessed with filling in his time by himself.  We didnt go out, we did nothing together.
 
After the 5 weeks of work he immediately went on to a strict diet with weekly food delivered just for him. I might as well not have been around other than to wash and clean.  No cuddles, no contact and no sex.
 
Needless to say because of the neglect this last weekend ended up in a fiasco.  Yelling, screaming and physical abuse.  There has been no physical abuse for 4 years until this weekend.
 
As we all know they expect you to be there for them.  Bottom line.  They can be any way they want but their partner has to always be happy.  They can be selfish, mean, abusive, hard working, flirtatious, charming, neglectful, sarcastic, hurtful and non committal.  All we have to do is be there for them and be happy.  The perfect relationship for an N.  I am sure there are a few people who can do that for the privilege of living with an N (excitement and challenge).
 
 It takes a lot to pick yourself up again and forget that you dared lose it.  That you dared try to get some sort of normality and understanding.   You ask yourself why cant I work around him and get my life working for me the way he does.  Outside interests etc, but reality  is that one can never have a sharing caring relationship with these people.  They are going through life on their own and we are an attachment.  If we get his favours well and good if we dont, than dont complain.
 
Sorry on the brink at the moment.  I know what is going on and how it all works.  The staying and living with what I know or the leaving.  Either way I see it as putting up with it or putting up with it.
 
Great to have some input at the moment.
 
dx
 
 

Reply
 Message 8 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknamefluffinupSent: 28/08/2007 1:53 p.m.
Donna,
 
I am worried about you.  As I understand it, physical abuse only gets more severe over time.  Are you set on staying with him? 
 
Fluff

Reply
 Message 9 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknametwinkletoes678Sent: 29/08/2007 8:12 a.m.
Hi donna.and hugs to you. You are worth far more than he has to offer.

Reply
 Message 10 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameHeartToWorshipSent: 7/04/2008 2:34 a.m.
My Father is an N and 74 years of age now. He's a tough nut to crack. For the past 6 years or so I've tried to talk to him to help him realize how he effects me. He can't see it and competes with me when I have a bone to pick with him. A couple years back I cut contact with him for several months. Then tried again, the situation only repeated itself and he continues to run me down and humiliate me by the things he says. I hung up the phone on him today after a very rough conversation. I talked to someone else I know who had an N parent and she was able to add some light.

I'm convinced at this point that these are very hard people to get through to because they have such a strong ego that they actually decieve themselves. I was an emotional mess when I was younger but realized I had to get away from my dad. Because of that I was able to flourish and I'm emotionally strong now. I'm no longer afraid of him as I once was and I have the strength to confront him and expose him for what he is. It's like a tsunami what that happens and I've decided it's best to cut ties with him.

Reply
 Message 11 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN NicknameKoodraSent: 15/04/2008 6:32 a.m.
How elegantly put.

I sent it to my shrink and she agreed whole-heartedly

Reply
 Message 12 of 14 in Discussion 
From: had enoughSent: 16/04/2008 2:02 a.m.
This is great!
 
Thanks for posting it for us.
Hugs,
Had Enough

Reply
 Message 13 of 14 in Discussion 
From: PerseusSent: 16/06/2008 12:33 p.m.
I think the parent may try "Puff the Magic Dragon" to blow away your defences and cause endless distress.

Reply
 Message 14 of 14 in Discussion 
From: XtraMSN Nicknamefullstride07Sent: 22/08/2008 11:01 a.m.
Hey HeartToWorship.
 
I just read your post and it was almost eerie how similar a situation we've got. My father is 67 right now and I tried the same thing... kept telling him how much he was hurting me by the way he was humiliating me... especially in public in front of his friends. Complete disregard for my dignity. And when I confronted him, he'd just turn it around and get in a complete rage and I just didn't understand how a father could do this to a son that was obviously in pain and just wanted a father to help me out.
 
And then, just by chance, I discovered what NPD was and it was like the most massive lightbulb went on over my head. Suddenly, it all made sense. All of his behavior over all of the years that just made absolute no sense to me... finally I understood why. He's a super hardcore N. I remember trying so, so hard to try and get him to change... and I remember for years and years wondering - if in his older years, he'd finally calm down and start to appreciate the closest members of his family. But, as I've learned, it seems that Ns get worse with age. It's really sad. And I believe it's true. My father has gotten worse over the years. So I've decided to completely cut off conversation. It's interesting. I've seen the term "NC" used quite liberally with this group... and figured out what it meant just because I did it. I thought I was the only one who used this strategy. Guess it's comforting - in a sad way, I suppose - that I'm not the only one going through this. But since I've cut him off, I've become much, much happier and I know that all the things he said to me and the way he treated me over the years - it wasn't my fault. And I feel I'm getting stronger believing that.
 
I hope that you're getting better to and that you know that there are others out there going through the same thing you are. My thoughts are with you and the rest of you, too.

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